Manufacturing with USPCC

[PRM19XX]

Hey guys,
This is for all the designers and deck producers out there...
I just finished production on the Flight Deck Playing Card Series and delivered to my backers and I had some thoughts and questions.
I have produced a lot of products over the past few years including board games, hard bound graphic novels, messenger bags, t-shirts, resin statues and more. All of these I do for my self published graphic novel series. This was my first playing card set and my first time working with USPCC.
I've dealt with factories in China, Taiwan, and the United States. The USPCC was by far the worst experience I've had in any of those projects. They were so unprofessional and unclear with their numbers. Of course the problem with their numbers is solved once you've printed a deck with them, now I know exactly what decks from them would cost. But I will never again use USPCC because of their poor communication skills, terrible scheduling, and high pricing.
I'm curious to hear if anyone else here has had this experience with the USPCC. And if you had a great experience, have you manufacturing anything with another company that you can compare it to?
None of this has to do with product quality. The product quality is great, but it is not great for the price. I could have gotten a cheaper deck with more features at a competing company. If I do a reprint on the Flight Deck or another deck it will not be through the USPCC.

[Don Boyer]

My friend, I'm neither designer nor producer (yet), but I do consulting work for designers and producers.  It is a very familiar lament, unfortunately.  I could tell you stories that would make your hair stand on end, were I not obliged to protect certain people's confidentiality.  (The guy who can't keep secrets is the guy who suddenly stops hearing them... )

USPC has for some time been resting on its laurels.  The company changed hands a LOT in the latter quarter of the 20th Century, being treated more like a poker chip than a company with a solid history and caring individuals running the show.  The present parent company, Jarden, is a huge conglomerate which likely cares about little more than the bottom line.  Because USPC is the 800-pound gorilla in the market, they seem to behave like they can do what they want and you have little choice - even some of the remaining independent card-printing companies left are wholly-owned subsidiaries of USPC.  They're coasting on the popularity of just a few of their name brands, like Bicycle, Bee, Maverick and Aviator.  They know there's a market out there for custom decks, but they seem to be stumbling around in the dark trying to find it.

Oh, did I say little choice?  Well, little choice is [/i]not[/i] the same as no choice, right? 

Both Expert Playing Card Company (EPCC) and Legends Playing Card Company (LPCC) maintain official company topics here, and far from being hard-nosed competitors, they more often than not work in harmony, even having cards printed at the same plant in Taiwan.  A plant, I should point out, that does an excellent job at producing playing cards that are at least equal to if not better than anything USPC has made in quite some time.  (We tried talking USPC into having an official presense here; it's been a few months since we've heard anything from them.  It's like a golf swing that stops an inch before the tee - no follow-through.)

With either of those two companies, I think you'll find the customer service experience to be far superior to USPC as well, though that's not exactly hard to accomplish, is it?    They've dealt with USPC in the past, they understand what it's like and they make certain their customers don't have to deal with such nonsense any more.  They treat you like you'd treat you - perhaps even better!

[Marcus]

The USPCC could definitely work on their customer service towards the independent designers. If you print 100-300k decks per year through them it's a lot easier, a whole other thing if you print a 2,5k run.

However, while I have yet to have any personal experience customer service-wise with any of the two companies Don mentions, I have to disagree about the quality. Their cards and tucks are very good, but I have yet to handle a deck of theirs that beats what I've seen USPCC produce so far. Still, I hope they take notice because I can understand the decision of going with EPCC/LPCC if you can only print smaller runs and don't mind the small (albeit noticeable) difference in quality.

[PRM19XX]

Thanks, Don.
It's good to know other people have that problem with USPC, not just me.
I think part of the problem is what Marcus said, people always comment that the USPC quality is still better than the competitors. A lot of people hear this and think they need to go with USPC to produce their decks. But I think the quality difference is not worth the cost difference. When I first found out the price to add things like foil or embossing to the decks I though it was a typo because the price was so ridiculous.This collectible playing card subset is based entirely upon perception and I think we need to stop re-enforcing the idea that only the USPC can produce a good deck of cards. The USPC doesn't need a presence on this forum or any other card forum because there are already hundreds of people talking about how their decks are slightly better than other manufacturers and it scares people off from trying those other manufacturers. It also serves to drive up the prices of decks and cut into profit margins which means deck creators are forced to constantly release new decks every two or three months to try and make up for the small per deck profit margin. This constant flow of new decks are competing with each other for dollars and competing in collections for shelf space. You already have deck designers very subtly hinting about not being able to sell off their decks after the Kickstarter is over so in order to keep profits coming in they immediately announce their next deck. This is kind of a vicious cycle that will kill this developing market if creators aren't careful.

[Marcus]

The difference in quality (handling) is small enough for common card users to not notice it/care, so unless your deck caters mainly to magicians/cardists you could go with EPCC without any issues. I'm in no way against the cards their factory produce, I've just grown picky over the years and can't agree that they are equal to or beating USPCC just yet.

Problem is, the lower prices from printing through other producers (for example EPCC) rarely get passed on to the end-buyer. Most independent guys going through Kickstarter etc seem to be charging the price many of us have gotten used to for these decks. Instead of lower prices for customers, we have ended up with a bit higher margins for the creators.

But perhaps EPCC can pressure USPCC into lowering their costs? Nah, I highly doubt it. There are a lot of decks being produced right now but even if there were 50 independent designers making 2,5k runs per year, that'd be 125,000 decks. A rough estimate would be that the major companies probably order somewhere around 500,000 to 1,000,000 decks together over the course of a year, and even they are not the biggest players considering the huge amounts ordered by casinos. The independently produced decks are still such a small part of their business that there's even been talk about not bothering with those small runs any longer although luckily those plans were scrapped. It goes to show though, that it's such a small part of the earnings that it's at the very bottom of the priority list. Losing some (or even all of them) won't affect USPCC enough for them to change their modus operandi much. If the major companies switched they might take notice, but that's pretty unlikely since they're already getting a better price than average joe. (I know TBC/HOPC have tried out EPCC a few times but they're not large enough to be counted in here, from what I'm guesstimating.)

Small print runs cost more, so does special tucks, special paper stocks, embossing/debossing, metallic ink, foil and so on, and all of these have become so popular I believe many include it because they're afraid their deck won't succeed without it. And naturally, they want to end up earning a few bucks when the decks have been delivered. Preferably a bit more if possible. So we get expensive decks.

It is getting increasingly harder to get your Kickstarter decks to sell and I believe the lower print runs and higher prices are both a reason for this and an attempt at getting around it. Selling 1k is easier than 2,5k, but selling decks for $15-20 (excluding shipping) is tougher than selling decks for $10-14. Selling your deck when it’s competing with 1-2 other projects on Kickstarter was easier than selling your deck when it’s competing with 5-10 decks.

We simply have too many designers aiming to sell their decks to the same buyers, and instead of prices going down which normally happens, prices have gone up due to all the bling bling and the increasing shipping rates, both domestic and international. So even less decks sell, and that means lower print runs (because nobody wants to be left with a few hundred decks and the cost of them) and higher prices.

(And this post might be a bit too much stream of consciousness, I haven't slept for twenty hours and this topic is pretty wide and deep.)

[Don Boyer]

I know, Marcus, you don't think they've equaled USPC yet in quality...  There's a lot of people who would disagree, especially if you take a year-old USPC deck and compare it to a year-old EPCC or LPCC deck.  The quality of the paper is higher, and the finish is unique, something USPC hasn't produced, at least not during my lifetime of card-playing.

Believe it or not, yes, there are cases of the savings being passed on.  The Blue Crown's NOC v3 decks are a prime example.  If they continued using USPC, they would have increased the cost per deck to the point that TBC would have had to charge $5.95 instead of keeping the price to $4.95 - and USPC would have forced them to use tucks without a solid-printed interior.  Sure, there are a lot of "boutique decks" coming from these two companies, but that's because it's what the designers want - each additional feature increases the cost, and the cost is already quite high when you print in such short runs.  Until EPCC and LPCC started doing it, print runs as short as 1,000 decks were practically unheard of.

So, look not at the Encarded Zenith deck as the prime example of savings - it's among the worst examples because it was such a short run and had many features added.  Look at something more like the NOC deck - a prime-quality deck that's not entirely plain-Jane and is available for barely more than what I pay for a pack of Bicycles from the local pharmacy store.  Bicycle quality for the off-the-shelf Rider Backs was excellent until recently - now it's more like adequate.

For LPCC, look no further than their Legends v1 decks - a deck that's tricked out to be an ideal magician's deck with features you'd normally pay three or four times as much to get.

There is a small but growing trend among some card designers and producers to create a simpler deck.  While it's great to make all these super-special limited-run works of art, it's also nice to have a basic, everyday deck with your own version of standard faces on it.  The trend arguably started with the NOC deck, which was a huge hit when it was released.  I now know of at least two designers/producers who are working on projects to produce simpler, "entry-level" decks that will be less expensive and popular with a working magician or an avid beer-and-pretzels poker player.  No fancy features, a simple one- or two-color back and the artist's take on a standard face for his brand.  It won't entirely reverse the trend for costly, feature-laden decks, but it is a refreshing change to see custom deck makers looking to create something more basic and affordable.

BTW: Kickstarter is more competitive than I think you estimated.  I started tracking it about two years ago, when it was rare that there were more than three deck projects running at the same time.  Now it's rare to see fewer than 25...

[Marcus]

I know, Marcus, you don't think they've equaled USPC yet in quality...

Heh, if this is a dig at me mentioning it again, let's keep in mind that I've stated my opinion twice and not in every topic that ever mentions EPCC/LPCC, shall we?

There's a lot of people who would disagree, especially if you take a year-old USPC deck and compare it to a year-old EPCC or LPCC deck.  The quality of the paper is higher, and the finish is unique, something USPC hasn't produced, at least not during my lifetime of card-playing.

And there's a lot of people who would disagree with the EPCC/LPCC decks being superior. I guess that is what happens when it comes down to opinions, yeah? I've simply stated my opinion and I know a few major players who've tried out EPCC/LPCC decks and decided to stick with USPCC due to the handling quality. And so far out of the ones I have heard praise these new decks as the next coming of christ and whom I personally know have decades of experience in card production, they have had some kind of connection to either of the companies or the actual plant so naturally I'm taking that with a grain of salt. This doesn't mean that they can't be unbiased, but I'm sure most would weigh those opinions differently than from people with no affiliation. And I'm also not saying there aren't guys with no affiliation or massive experience who'd agree, I'm simply stating what I've personally heard from those I personally know have the extra amount of experience. From guys with no connection to any of the companies I've only heard pro-USPCC comments so far. And I guess I should mention that I'm not saying anyone here who's pro EPCC/LPCC don't know enough or have enough experience, I'm only saying that I do not know whether or not anyone here have that experience since I don't know that many of you.

This new plant is doing a great job at producing quality playing cards and I'm happy to see them growing, competition is always good even if we're talking David and Goliath proportions here. If they keep up this pace of improvement, I wouldn't be surprised to see them beating USPCC in quality eventually.

Believe it or not, yes, there are cases of the savings being passed on.  The Blue Crown's NOC v3 decks are a prime example.  If they continued using USPC, they would have increased the cost per deck to the point that TBC would have had to charge $5.95 instead of keeping the price to $4.95 - and USPC would have forced them to use tucks without a solid-printed interior.

I guess I should have emphasized "rarely". I'm well aware of the NOC v3's, but you and I both know this is far from the norm.

Sure, there are a lot of "boutique decks" coming from these two companies, but that's because it's what the designers want - each additional feature increases the cost, and the cost is already quite high when you print in such short runs.  Until EPCC and LPCC started doing it, print runs as short as 1,000 decks were practically unheard of.

Not even sure why you bring this up, since nobody's even questioned any of this?

So, look not at the Encarded Zenith deck as the prime example of savings - it's among the worst examples because it was such a short run and had many features added.  Look at something more like the NOC deck - a prime-quality deck that's not entirely plain-Jane and is available for barely more than what I pay for a pack of Bicycles from the local pharmacy store.  Bicycle quality for the off-the-shelf Rider Backs was excellent until recently - now it's more like adequate.

I think it's great that there's at least one or two more options for cheaper decks, but unfortunately this is one of the few occasions where the savings are actually passed on to the customer, which was my point.

There is a small but growing trend among some card designers and producers to create a simpler deck.  While it's great to make all these super-special limited-run works of art, it's also nice to have a basic, everyday deck with your own version of standard faces on it.  The trend arguably started with the NOC deck, which was a huge hit when it was released.

Let's not forget the Bicycle Masters from E that was ahead of everyone else with the "regular" look, the improved quality and the reasonable price. I'd agree the current trend (although I'd say that's a stretch to call it just yet) probably started with the NOC, though.

I now know of at least two designers/producers who are working on projects to produce simpler, "entry-level" decks that will be less expensive and popular with a working magician or an avid beer-and-pretzels poker player.  No fancy features, a simple one- or two-color back and the artist's take on a standard face for his brand.  It won't entirely reverse the trend for costly, feature-laden decks, but it is a refreshing change to see custom deck makers looking to create something more basic and affordable.

Finally, we seem to agree about something! 

BTW: Kickstarter is more competitive than I think you estimated.  I started tracking it about two years ago, when it was rare that there were more than three deck projects running at the same time.  Now it's rare to see fewer than 25...

My numbers might be a bit off, but my point is that they're still such a small piece of the pie that USPCC can afford to not pay too much attention to it when looking at the earnings/time ratio. I believe it wasn't even a year ago that I know for a fact there was talk about dropping the custom printing altogether for anything below 10k (or possibly 20k, I don't recall right now). The Kickstarter trend has increased a lot since then but it definitely still says something about whether or not it really makes a dent.

And finally, to be perfectly clear here - I pledge for and purchase decks that are printed through EPCC/LPCC without any hesitation. I'm not against them in any way, however I do still prefer designers to go with USPCC since I find them to be slightly better.

(Wow, this was a tough post to make on the phone.)

[Don Boyer]

I know, Marcus, you don't think they've equaled USPC yet in quality...

Heh, if this is a dig at me mentioning it again, let's keep in mind that I've stated my opinion twice and not in every topic that ever mentions EPCC/LPCC, shall we?
----
(Wow, this was a tough post to make on the phone.)

It wasn't a dig - simply an acknowledgement.  I'm all about freedom of expression and people holding varying opinions - it would be a dull world indeed if everyone I met agreed with me.  Debates like this are part of what makes life interesting, but in the end, at least at the present, we'll have to agree to disagree.

And yes - a VERY tough post!  You did well!

As far as mentioning "boutique" decks, I did so to show it's a prime reason why so many LPCC and EPCC decks are so terrifically expensive.  The designers bear the blame for that; those companies are simply fulfilling their requests, though one could argue that it's their fault because they're providing the options that make such expensive decks possible, making them comparable to "enablers" to the designers' addiction! 

And yes, I wanted to use the Masters decks as examples, but they didn't really fit the bill.  At the time they were made, there wasn't a single Ellusionist deck that DIDN'T have the Bicycle name and a variation of the Rider Back design.  It was too early in the current custom deck wave to really be a "rule breaker".

I know that the Custom Department accounts for an outsized amount of USPC's income - I'm simply curious if the figure I learned (and unfortunately can't reveal here) also includes custom deck work for casinos, or whether that's an entirely different department.  And I've heard rumors to that effect as well, about them considering a raising of minimums to 10,000 - but at the same time, Kickstarter's stepped in and there's no way they want to miss that action, which they would if the minimum were raised that high.  If anything, with the increased popularity of KS, they lowered the minimum from 5K to only 2.5K.

There's no denying that they want a hunk of the custom market - it's much more lucrative on a per-deck basis.  They're creating designs of their own to on some level compete with the custom work, and the fact that Jackson Robinson is doing design work for them is another telling sign.

But one thing that they really need to work on at USPC is the customer service.  While many designers have a perfectly pleasant experience, I've heard other designers - well-known and popular designers - tell me horror stories of their USPC experiences.  Bill Kalush created Expert PCC in part because of the difficulties that he was having working with USPC - which means if USPC was better at making a great customer experience for everyone they work with, there's a fairly good chance Expert might not even exist.

[Marcus]

But one thing that they really need to work on at USPC is the customer service.  While many designers have a perfectly pleasant experience, I've heard other designers - well-known and popular designers - tell me horror stories of their USPC experiences.  Bill Kalush created Expert PCC in part because of the difficulties that he was having working with USPC - which means if USPC was better at making a great customer experience for everyone they work with, there's a fairly good chance Expert might not even exist.

Agreed. The USPCC definitely needs to work on this and my guess is that since this is still such a small piece of the pie, the guys upstairs don't bother making sure the service is top notch for the custom jobs, so it all comes down to whether or not the person handling your specific project cares enough to put in that extra effort. I hope they can shape up and deliver better customer service in the future though I sincerely hope that EPCC can grow enough to keep some of their customers even if this was the case.

Hell, if I ever decided to actually produce a deck of my own I might go with EPCC if the USPCC can't give me a good enough deal since the print runs differ that much. Then it all comes down to the sum total, because quality-wise I could definitely live with EPCC even though I'd prefer the USPCC.

[Emmanuel]

I can't speak for everyone, but my experience with USPCC was terrific for the entire duration of the Clipped Wings campaign. My contacts were always prompt with their responses via email and phone, and they were incredibly friendly and helpful to me.

There weren't any delays with printing, and the turnaround time for the production of Clipped Wings was 4 weeks. I will admit though that having a standard, simple tuck case definitely played a big part in the quick turnaround time. I enjoyed working with USPCC and I plan on working with them again. 

[Don Boyer]

I can't speak for everyone, but my experience with USPCC was terrific for the entire duration of the Clipped Wings campaign. My contacts were always prompt with their responses via email and phone, and they were incredibly friendly and helpful to me.

There weren't any delays with printing, and the turnaround time for the production of Clipped Wings was 4 weeks. I will admit though that having a standard, simple tuck case definitely played a big part in the quick turnaround time. I enjoyed working with USPCC and I plan on working with them again. 

I believe you're very correct on that conclusion about the tucks.  There's also the fact that your deck designs were one-color backs with two-color faces, no fancy metallic inks, etc.  In many ways, your deck was easier for them to create than their own Bicycle and Bee decks!  The art on your decks is great, but it's also very simple in terms of reproducing it accurately a few thousand times - the fewer the variables, the easier the job.

Even something as simple as requesting Bee Casino stock, no matter how basic your design, complicates a project.  USPC doesn't make their own tuck boxes for a deck made with stock that thick, so they have to hire a contractor/supplier to do that work for them which adds weeks to the completion date of one's print job.

The more features a designer wants, whether is in the cards, the tucks or the brick boxes, the more complex the project gets, the more the deck will cost and the more chances for something to go sideways and pear-shaped.  This is true no matter who you're printing with, but it can be especially true at USPC.

[Emmanuel]

I can't speak for everyone, but my experience with USPCC was terrific for the entire duration of the Clipped Wings campaign. My contacts were always prompt with their responses via email and phone, and they were incredibly friendly and helpful to me.

There weren't any delays with printing, and the turnaround time for the production of Clipped Wings was 4 weeks. I will admit though that having a standard, simple tuck case definitely played a big part in the quick turnaround time. I enjoyed working with USPCC and I plan on working with them again. 

I believe you're very correct on that conclusion about the tucks.  There's also the fact that your deck designs were one-color backs with two-color faces, no fancy metallic inks, etc.  In many ways, your deck was easier for them to create than their own Bicycle and Bee decks!  The art on your decks is great, but it's also very simple in terms of reproducing it accurately a few thousand times - the fewer the variables, the easier the job.

Even something as simple as requesting Bee Casino stock, no matter how basic your design, complicates a project.  USPC doesn't make their own tuck boxes for a deck made with stock that thick, so they have to hire a contractor/supplier to do that work for them which adds weeks to the completion date of one's print job.

The more features a designer wants, whether is in the cards, the tucks or the brick boxes, the more complex the project gets, the more the deck will cost and the more chances for something to go sideways and pear-shaped.  This is true no matter who you're printing with, but it can be especially true at USPC.

Yup, USPCC said on more than one occasion that they really like printing my decks

[PRM19XX]

Emmanuel, your deck is a two color deck, red and black. That means they save some money by only using two printing plates. Do they pass that savings on to you? Any other manufacturer would have a two color price that is cheaper than the four color price but for some reason I don't picture USPCC going down in price so that could explain why they are so happy when they talk to you!
The question is, when a new designer decides to use USPCC, which version of the company are they going to get? The one you dealt with, or the one I dealt with and that many others seemed to have dealt with also? And would better customer service have made a difference when their prices are so high? 

[Emmanuel]

Paul, I can't state the figures, but USPCC did apply discounts to Clipped Wings production. The deck was easier and more straightforward to print than other decks, and they were pretty pleased about that.

[PRM19XX]

That's good you got a discount!

[publius]

Not sure if this is a good place to ask, but the thread title would suggest perhaps.... where does one obtain the Bicycle logos for use in a custom deck design?

[Marcus]

Not sure if this is a good place to ask, but the thread title would suggest perhaps.... where does one obtain the Bicycle logos for use in a custom deck design?

E-mail them at customdivision@usplayingcard.com and they should be able to provide you with proper files of the art work.

[publius]

cool - thanks!

[Don Boyer]

Not sure if this is a good place to ask, but the thread title would suggest perhaps.... where does one obtain the Bicycle logos for use in a custom deck design?

E-mail them at customdivision@usplayingcard.com and they should be able to provide you with proper files of the art work.

I did hear from someone at one point that they were not releasing the logo, asking designers to leave it blank so they could insert it on the finished product.  But that doesn't really make a lot of sense 'cause people are always showing it off on their decks.  Maybe it's that the ready-to-print files have to have it left off or something?  I have no idea.

[harryjwyatt]

Maybe it is worth my mentioning here that I interacted with the USPCC custom division a lot while developing my "Suitable Playing Cards" deck. I found them to be extremely helpful. I was working up a fairly complex job, with Photoshop files linked into their Illustrator files, using spot colors, etc. Whatever one thinks of their pricing and quality, I had a very positive experience with their communicativeness and helpfulness.