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The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)

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Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #125 on: March 30, 2012, 04:40:50 PM »
 

eggman

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So I won't post all of my beliefs in detail here because
1) I don't think I should reveal everything on the web
2) I'm too lazy to write it all out.

But basically I don't think there is a god. There's many things that wouldn't work if there were one IMO. Also, why would he let all the people that destroy nature, pollute, have a lot of money to live in mansions... live perfect lives and not do anything to help all those suffering in India, China, North Korea, and Africa among other places. Why would the majority of hard-working americans do everything they can to live a decent life while the top 3% is just chilling, buying stocks and letting our economy crash by selling stocks. Why would a small group of individuals be allowed to decide the fate of our nation without a potential god doing anything. I'm too lazy to write some more right now.
I understand your point and you are far from the only person who holds it. It is easy to look at the world today and see how man suffers. If you look at this suffering in say, African countries, you will find much of this suffering is brought about by corrupt governments. Much of this is a result of the cold war when the US and USSR were using Africa as a play thing. Look at Mugabi, prime example of US playing games. That being said, much of mans suffering is brought about by man. If it is man caused, man has the ability to change it. If God fixed all these problems we would not have free will. The purpose is to use this free will we have been given the right way. During the cold war, the US and USSR sent weapons to every corner of the world. This means the also have the ability to send bread to every corner of the world. When you reflect upon it, Mao, Stalin and Hitler killed more people in their reigns than religion has in 2,000 years. Each of these men were Atheist and beleived themselves and the state to be the final ultimate power. I know people here say Hitler was a Christian. Yes, he was babtized Christian, but he left it behind and did what he did.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #126 on: March 30, 2012, 05:13:01 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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So I won't post all of my beliefs in detail here because
1) I don't think I should reveal everything on the web
2) I'm too lazy to write it all out.

But basically I don't think there is a god. There's many things that wouldn't work if there were one IMO. Also, why would he let all the people that destroy nature, pollute, have a lot of money to live in mansions... live perfect lives and not do anything to help all those suffering in India, China, North Korea, and Africa among other places. Why would the majority of hard-working americans do everything they can to live a decent life while the top 3% is just chilling, buying stocks and letting our economy crash by selling stocks. Why would a small group of individuals be allowed to decide the fate of our nation without a potential god doing anything. I'm too lazy to write some more right now.
I understand your point and you are far from the only person who holds it. It is easy to look at the world today and see how man suffers. If you look at this suffering in say, African countries, you will find much of this suffering is brought about by corrupt governments. Much of this is a result of the cold war when the US and USSR were using Africa as a play thing. Look at Mugabi, prime example of US playing games. That being said, much of mans suffering is brought about by man. If it is man caused, man has the ability to change it. If God fixed all these problems we would not have free will. The purpose is to use this free will we have been given the right way. During the cold war, the US and USSR sent weapons to every corner of the world. This means the also have the ability to send bread to every corner of the world. When you reflect upon it, Mao, Stalin and Hitler killed more people in their reigns than religion has in 2,000 years. Each of these men were Atheist and beleived themselves and the state to be the final ultimate power. I know people here say Hitler was a Christian. Yes, he was babtized Christian, but he left it behind and did what he did.
This is where I disagree. First of all, not all suffering is man made. Many people are born into poverty. Most of the time because of the way the government functions, but often because of their situation. Have a child be born in the middle of the desert without any resources around him. Will he die? Yes. Will it be humanity's fault? No, because we didn't do anything to harm him in any way. Of course the government can help human beings, but utopia does't exist. There will always be some that will be more harmed than others and there will always be a group that will prevail. Unfortunately. You bring up the point of free will. Let's admit God exists. Now, as much as he supports free will, wouldn't he help, just a bit, to bring order or at least guide us to peace and calm? He did it in many instances in the Bible. Some people where being racist and killing others. According to the Bible, God helped them survive, and punished "the bad guys". Now, when we need him the most, why on Earth wouldn't he be here?
There are so many other points I would like to bring up, but for the sake of time I'll end here.
On a side note, I think it would be a great idea to organise a hangout and a chat so we could all calmly debate over this subject without having to type out pages.
And a debate on our political views might also be fun!
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 05:14:01 PM by NathanCanadas »
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #127 on: March 30, 2012, 07:20:43 PM »
 

eggman

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Certainly, I never met to imply all suffering is man made. Children born ill, natural disaters etc. terrible things that I have no answer for. On the other hand, a man made famine in China killed 10's of millions. The Irish potato famine was caused by the British. War and much of the starvation in Africa was caused or increased by governments and warlords. Most of my suffering was caused by myself. As a matter of a fact, about 90% of my suffering was caused by myself.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #128 on: March 30, 2012, 07:34:30 PM »
 

Kanped

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Hitler wasn't an atheist.  Throwing Mao, Hitler and Stalin into the mix is confusing the issue, anyway; the argument there is secularism vs totalitarianism i.e., the point is political, not religious.  In fact, in the case of Stalin, the previous entirely religious position of the tsar was what allowed him to rule absolutely as he did (the tsars acted as a kind of pope; a channel to god).  Were these good people?  No.  Did their religious beliefs have anything to do with that?  No.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #129 on: March 30, 2012, 08:00:50 PM »
 

eggman

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I guessed you rather missed my point. Still, I would rather hear what you beleive than what you do not beleive. It is the best way for me to learn about the ideas of other peoples faith or lack there of.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #130 on: March 31, 2012, 04:47:29 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Don; you do not believe in god, therefore are an atheist.  No matter how moderate your attitude may be, if you do not believe that there is a god up there, even if your answer is 'I don't know if there is or not', you ARE an atheist.

But you're missing the whole sentence - I neither believe nor disbelieve.  I simply don't know and am not willing to commit to one side of that coin or the other.  I consider that it's possible that a god or gods exist, but I haven't yet seen proof enough to satisfy me EITHER WAY - so you couldn't accurately say that I don't believe in a god.  That's not atheism, at least not as I know it.

somebody denying God's existence is provable: somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists
2. somebody denying something is knowable: somebody who doubts that a question has one correct answer or that something can be completely understood
"I'm an agnostic concerning space aliens."


Def. Of agnostic

Def. of Gnostics (general)
Many Gnostic sects were Christians who embraced mystical theories of the true nature of Jesus and/or the Christ which were out of step with the teachings of orthodox Christian faith. For example, Gnostics generally taught docetism, the belief that Jesus did not have a physical body, but rather his apparent physical body was an illusion, and hence his crucifixion was not bodily

I'm taking it from the literal Greek meaning and the meaning used by the majority of philosophers that I have read on the subject.  It makes perfect sense to me to use that definition.

Eggman is giving the defiintion of Gnostics, the proper noun, representing a specific group, while Kanped is thinking of gnostics, the common noun, not representing a specific group.  It's like the difference between the misfits (people who don't fit into societal norms) and the Misfits (a punkabilly rock band), or rolling stones (stones acted upon by directional force causing them to move on the surface they're on in a generally rotational manner) and the Rolling Stones (a British rock band).

As a matter of a fact, about 90% of my suffering was caused by myself.

If we are to believe the teachings of Buddha, it's more like 100%.  :))

Hitler wasn't an atheist.  Throwing Mao, Hitler and Stalin into the mix is confusing the issue, anyway; the argument there is secularism vs totalitarianism i.e., the point is political, not religious.  In fact, in the case of Stalin, the previous entirely religious position of the tsar was what allowed him to rule absolutely as he did (the tsars acted as a kind of pope; a channel to god).  Were these good people?  No.  Did their religious beliefs have anything to do with that?  No.

Hitler, towards the end of the war, was looked upon as a sort of deity or demi-god in the state religion, if I'm not mistaken.  At the minimum, he was said to be acting on divine direction, much like the kings of old when the title became hereditary rather than chosen by one's ability to keep the populace safe.
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Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #131 on: March 31, 2012, 06:33:21 AM »
 

Kanped

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I guessed you rather missed my point. Still, I would rather hear what you beleive than what you do not beleive. It is the best way for me to learn about the ideas of other peoples faith or lack there of.

I don't believe in the supernatural.  What was your point?
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #132 on: March 31, 2012, 12:48:02 PM »
 

eggman

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My point was just that when people like Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot etc. declare themeselves the absolute final authortity they expected to be followed as a God. When the Communists took power one of the first institutions they went after was the church. I know people have the mistaken view that Hitler was a Catholic but one of the populations he sent to the concentration camps was Catholic priests. Maximmilian Colby, one of the priests in such a camp, offered himself up as the Nazis were prepared to kill a jewish family. The Nazis accepted his offer and injected him with ammonia and bleach then shooting him.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #133 on: March 31, 2012, 12:50:14 PM »
 

eggman

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PS Don, I was reffering to either definition of gnostic. The people, or there beleif.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #134 on: March 31, 2012, 02:56:53 PM »
 

moonexe

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I like coffee. Hitler probably liked coffee as well. I must be an evil person.
You know someone's being an idiot when a religious debate gets to the Hitler/Stalin point. Nuff said.
Grin like a Cheshire cat, and remember: we're all mad here.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #135 on: March 31, 2012, 03:30:54 PM »
 

eggman

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Dude, you missed it big time. ??? P.S I agree, coffee is great. I like mine with just cream. How about you?
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #136 on: March 31, 2012, 07:11:13 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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I think it's kinda ridiculous to characterize religions with crazy individuals. Whether Hitler is catholic or not doesn't mean all catholics or all non-catholics are crazy like him.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #137 on: March 31, 2012, 08:34:21 PM »
 

eggman

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No, it was not about saying Hitler was Catholic. When speaking of Religion it is common to have the theme of Communists and Dictators come up as they had a major effect on Religion. Even today in China the Government fears Religous movements as Communisim wants to be seen as the only power, moral and otherwise. I spent some time in China and I was surprised to find Christians in many areas still having to hold services in secret. That is where the discussion of these regimes and people came into play as we discussed religion. Hitler being Catholic is just one of those things people mistakenly throw out there. It has no basis on the conversation other than the controversey it is meant to create. I like to avoid controversy in discussion such as this as I truly learn from reading about the beleifs of others. Although I am Catholic I beleive the grace of God exists in all religions. I also find ideas and writtings on athiestic thought to be fascinating. I do not beleive in insulting the beleifs of others. I am not saying anyone here is insulting anyones beleifs, I am just pointing out how I try to learn from discussions such as these.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #138 on: March 31, 2012, 08:38:06 PM »
 

Kanped

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OR all atheists.  It's an irrelevant point and totalitarian states operate exactly like a religion; an unquestionable authority (again, Buddhism excepting although they do some weird stuff, sometimes).  It often gets used to point to how all atheist-led governments have been immoral and it's nonsense.

Regarding Hitler; read anything he wrote, translate virtually any of his speeches and count the number of times God is mentioned.  In 'Mein Kampf', he specifically states that he believed he was doing 'God's work' in exterminating the Jewish people.  Right up until the fall of the regime, every Nazi officer in their inauguration had to swear an oath that started with the words 'I swear in the name of almighty God'.  Every Nazi belt-buckle in every uniform that came with one was emblazoned with 'God is on our side'.  The first treaty the NSDAF made was with the Vatican, in exhange for giving control of German education over to the Roman Catholic church.  Hitler was a choirboy in his youth and never made any public or surviving private statements about leaving the church in any capacity.  50% of the SS regularly attended confession.

On the other side, the Roman Catholic church never denounced Hitler and remained impartial throughout its entire campaign.  It celebrated Hitler's birthday and ordered its followers to pray for him even after his death (a practice that was ended by external forces).  The only high ranking Nazi (in fact, the only Nazi we know of full stop) to be excommunicated from the Roman Catholic church was Joseph Goebbels (the propaganda guy; unbelievably evil.  In the end he ordered all his children to be put under sedation and then given cyanide.  The youngest was 4 years old.  The oldest was 12; when the Russians stormed the bunker, she was found with a broken jaw, suggesting she struggled.  He shot his wife and then himself later that day). 

He was excommunicated for marrying a Protestant.

94 German Catholic priests ended up in a concentration camp; the rest were all foreign nationals, mostly Polish.  High ranking members of the church were given special treatment (private cells etc.) and there's very little evidence of them being treated badly.  It seems clear that they weren't being targeted BECAUSE they were Catholic priests, otherwise the numbers would be far greater.  You would have hoped that more priests would have been sent to camps for dissenting and speaking out against wholesale genocide but they didn't and they weren't.

Now, there's conflicting evidence and nobody really knows for sure whether or not Hitler was really a Catholic, or even a believer so it's pointless to labour the issue BUT I really don't think the Vatican comes out of the whole affair looking particularly good, either way.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #139 on: March 31, 2012, 08:49:49 PM »
 

moonexe

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P.S I agree, coffee is great. I like mine with just cream. How about you?
2% Milk and sugar(One measure of each). Cream is too rich for me. :P
Grin like a Cheshire cat, and remember: we're all mad here.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #140 on: April 01, 2012, 12:23:33 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Now, there's conflicting evidence and nobody really knows for sure whether or not Hitler was really a Catholic, or even a believer so it's pointless to labour the issue BUT I really don't think the Vatican comes out of the whole affair looking particularly good, either way.

Especially when there's a sitting Pope who was a member of the Hitler Youth.  Some individuals made great sacrifices to save people of whatever faith, but the Catholic Church as a whole was pretty reprehensible in their complicity with Germany.  They probably figured Hitler would win the war and opted to be on the side of the winner.

I believe that Hitler was a theist - who thought that he was God!  If not God, then certainly very well connected to Him...
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Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #141 on: April 01, 2012, 12:29:57 AM »
 

Aaron

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I have determined from this thread that what I am is an agonist(I think that was the word) I pretty much think there is a god, but when I think about the evidence, it just doesn't add up. Also I don't believe in what the bible says, Wouldn't it be funny if someone wrote the bible as a joke and people took it way too seriously?
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Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #142 on: April 01, 2012, 11:11:02 AM »
 

Kanped

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@Don re: The Pope being in the Hitler Youth.  I don't think it's that detrimental to his character when you look at the track record of Popes and Nazis side-by-side.

@Aaron Errr.. 'agonist' isn't one I've heard before but (like 'agony') comes from the Greek 'ἀγωνιστής' meaning conflict, so that would make a kind of sense but what you do is what every believer who understands the evidence must do; suspend rationality and believe something DESPITE the evidence.  It's called 'faith'. 

I think a lot of the Bible, while not a joke was intended as a work of fiction.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #143 on: April 01, 2012, 12:52:29 PM »
 

eggman

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Don, the pope was never in the Hitler Youth. He was, however drafted by the German Army at a young age. He did not have much of a choice. His father left a civil service job as his family did not agree with what hitler was doing to the country. The Pope never fought in combat and never supported Hitler.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #144 on: April 01, 2012, 01:20:06 PM »
 

digipunk

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...When you reflect upon it, Mao, Stalin and Hitler killed more people in their reigns than religion has in 2,000 years...
...a man made famine in China killed 10's of millions....

You broke China's national secrets. ???
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 01:20:25 PM by digipunk »
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #145 on: April 01, 2012, 11:33:52 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Don, the pope was never in the Hitler Youth. He was, however drafted by the German Army at a young age. He did not have much of a choice. His father left a civil service job as his family did not agree with what hitler was doing to the country. The Pope never fought in combat and never supported Hitler.

Actually, he was.  The Wikipedia article on him says as much, and you can bet that the Vatican keeps close tabs on any Wikipedia articles about all things Catholic to insure their side of the story is told.  Articles on well-known personalities such as Pope Benedict XVI are usually locked to prevent frivolous changes, aren't they?

Granted, it also says he was a reluctant member, and that he also served in the German Air Force as a child soldier in an anti-aircraft unit, from which he defected.

It's truly hard to know exactly what he though.  The article doesn't quote him, and even his telling of the story might not be entirely true, especially if the truth paints him in a horrible light.  Not saying the truth and his version don't jibe, but just considering the possibility.
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Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #146 on: April 02, 2012, 08:37:43 AM »
 

eggman

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He was not a member of the Hitler youth. I can assure you that.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #147 on: April 02, 2012, 09:51:03 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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He was not a member of the Hitler youth. I can assure you that.

Because you were there?

From Wikipedia article, "Early Life of Pope Benedict XVI":

Background and childhood (1927–1943) Joseph Alois Ratzinger was born on 16 April, Holy Saturday, 1927 at 11 Schulstrasse, his parents' home in Marktl am Inn, Bavaria and baptised on the same day. He was the third and youngest child of Joseph Ratzinger, Sr., a police officer, and his wife, Maria (née Peintner), whose family were from South Tyrol. His father served in both the Bavarian State Police (Landespolizei) and the German national Regular Police (Ordnungspolizei) before retiring in 1937 to the town of Traunstein. The Sunday Times described the older Ratzinger as "an anti-Nazi whose attempts to rein in Hitler's Brown Shirts forced the family to move several times." [1] According to the International Herald Tribune, these relocations were directly related to Joseph Ratzinger, Sr.'s continued resistance to Nazism, which resulted in demotions and transfers.[2] The pope's brother Georg said: "Our father was a bitter enemy of Nazism because he believed it was in conflict with our faith". [3] The family had a sadder encounter with the Nazi regime, because of its euthanasia program for the handicapped. John Allen, a Ratzinger biographer, reports a revelation made by Cardinal Ratzinger at a conference in the Vatican on 28 November 1996: "Ratzinger had a cousin with Down's Syndrome who in 1941 was 14 years old. This cousin was just a few months younger than Ratzinger and was taken away by the Nazi authorities for "therapy" Not long afterwards, the family received word that he was dead, presumably one of the 'undesirables' eliminated during that time." [4]
His elder brother, Georg (still alive as of 2012) also became a priest. Their sister, Maria, managed Joseph's household until her death in 1991, fulfilling a promise she made to their parents to take care of her brothers. She never married.[1] Their great uncle Georg Ratzinger was a priest and member of the Reichstag, as the German Parliament was then called.
    Marktl am Inn, the house where Benedict XVI was born. The building still stands today.   According to his cousin Erika Kopper, Ratzinger had no desire from childhood to be anything other than a priest. At the age of 15, she says, he announced that he was going to be a bishop, whereupon she playfully remarked, "And why not Pope?" [5]. An even earlier incident occurred in 1932, when Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber, the archbishop of Munich, visited the small town in which the Ratzinger family lived, arriving in a black limousine. The future pope, then five years old, was part of a group of children who presented the cardinal with flowers, and later that day Ratzinger announced he wanted to be a cardinal, too. "It wasn't so much the car, since we weren't technically minded", Georg Ratzinger told a reporter from the New York Times. "It was the way the cardinal looked, his bearing, and the knickerbockers he was wearing that made such an impression on him." [6]
In 1939, aged 12, Joseph Ratzinger was enrolled in a minor seminary in Traunstein.[2] This period in minor seminary lasted until the seminary was closed for military use in 1942, and all students were sent home. Ratzinger returned to the Gymnasium in Traunstein.[3] During this period in the seminary, following his 14th birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was enrolled in the Hitler Youth, as membership was legally required in effect beginning 25 March 1939. Following the seminary closure he continued required attendance with the Hitler Youth to not receive financial penalties in the Gymnasium tuition fees. The financial penalty, which theoretically required documentation of attendance at Hitler Youth activities was overlooked when [4] a sympathetic mathematics professor allowed him not to attend any meetings. In Ratzinger's book Salt of the Earth, Ratzinger says the following " ... Thank goodness, there was a very understanding mathematics teacher. He himself was a Nazi but an honest man, who said to me, 'Just go once and get the document so that we have it' ... When he saw that I simply didn't want to, he said, 'I understand, I'll take care of it', and so I was able to stay free of it."[5]
After Joseph Ratzinger was elected as Pontiff in 2005, following the death of Pope John Paul II, a neighbor from Traunstein, Elizabeth Lohner, then 84 years old, was quoted in the 17 April 2005 edition of The Times ("Papal hopeful is a former Hitler Youth"), asserting that "t was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others. The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice." Lohner's own family dissented against the Nazi regime; at least one of her relatives, a brother-in-law, was sent to Dachau as punishment for his activities.[6]
 [edit] Military service (1943–1945)
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[size=90%]Battles/wars[/size]
[size=90%]World War II[/size]
In 1943, when he was 16, Joseph Ratzinger was drafted with many of his classmates into the Luftwaffenhelfer program. They were posted first to Ludwigsfeld, north of Munich, as part of a detachment responsible for guarding a BMW aircraft engine plant. Next they were sent to Unterföhring, northwest of Munich, and briefly to Innsbruck. From Innsbruck their unit went to Gilching to protect the jet fighter base and to attack Allied bombers as they massed to begin their runs towards Munich. At Gilching, Ratzinger served in a telephone communications post. On 10 September 1944, his class was released from the Corps. Returning home, Ratzinger had already received a new draft notice for the Reichsarbeitsdienst. He was posted to the Hungarian border area of Austria which had been annexed by Germany in the Anschluss of 1938. When Hungary was occupied by the Red Army Ratzinger was put to work setting up anti-tank defences in preparation for the expected Red Army offensive. [7] On 20 November 1944, his unit was released from service. Ratzinger again returned home. After three weeks passed, he was drafted into the German army at Munich and assigned to the infantry barracks in the center of Traunstein, the city near which his family lived. After basic infantry training, Ratzinger served at various posts around the city with his unit. They were never sent to the front.[citation needed]
In late April or early May, shortly before Germany's surrender, Ratzinger deserted. Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even though punishable by death (executions, frequently extrajudicial, continued to the end); diminished morale and the greatly diminished risk of prosecution from a preoccupied and disorganized German military contributed to the growing wave of soldiers looking toward self-preservation. Ratzinger left the city of Traunstein and headed for his nearby village. "I used a little-known back road hoping to get through unmolested. But, as I walked out of a railroad underpass, two soldiers were standing at their posts, and for a moment the situation was extremely exciting for me. Thank God that they, too, had had their fill of war and did not want to become murderers." They used the excuse of his arm being in a sling to let him go home. [7]
Soon after, two SS members were given shelter at the Ratzinger family house, and they began to make enquiries about the presence there of a young man of military age. [7] Ratzinger's father even made clear to these SS men his ire against Adolf Hitler, but the two disappeared the next day without taking any action against the Ratzinger family. Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in his memoirs, "A special angel seemed to be guarding us."[8]
When the Americans arrived in the village, "I was identified as a soldier, had to put back on the uniform I had already abandoned, had to raise my hands and join the steadily growing throng of war prisoners whom they were lining up on our meadow. It especially cut my good mother's heart to see her boy and the rest of the defeated army standing there, exposed to an uncertain fate..." [8] Ratzinger was briefly interned in a prisoner of war camp near Ulm and was released on 19 June 1945. He and another young man began to walk the 120 km (75 mi) home but got a lift to Traunstein in a milk truck. [9] The family was reunited when his brother, Georg, returned after being released from a prisoner of war camp in Italy.
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Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #148 on: April 02, 2012, 12:53:02 PM »
 

eggman

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There are some people, if they do not know, you just can not tell them. I will not bother posting proper resources. as I am getting tired of this thread. Time to discuss cards. Do some research on Wikepedia itself and you will learn a lot.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #149 on: April 02, 2012, 01:48:12 PM »
 

Kanped

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There are some people, if they do not know, you just can not tell them. I will not bother posting proper resources. as I am getting tired of this thread. Time to discuss cards. Do some research on Wikepedia itself and you will learn a lot.

It's easier to just say 'OK, you win', you know.