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Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)

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Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2014, 04:23:19 AM »
 

rjtomlinson1977

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Couldn't Jackson just invest personal capital to make up the difference he needs to close this project? Assuming whatever doesn't sell through Kickstarter will sell through his site and he comps whatever doesn't get made by backers than this is a sound strategy. Assume he has the capital to produce without crowd funding, why not run a KS project anyways to get as much as you can from backers and kick in the rest yourself?

He probably could afford to fund the rest of the project... but I bet he'll cancel and relaunch with a lower goal and maybe even a new strategy. The problem with him kicking in the rest on this project is the fact he would be pissing away 10% in fees to KS and Amazon.
I like the concept of the cheaper decks (based on higher print quantity) and I think the concept can work using a different approach.
 

Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2014, 11:11:55 PM »
 

Msp062

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Of all the Kings wild decks, this one is my favorite. A shame it probably won't fund in his current campaign.....
 

Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2014, 01:29:56 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Couldn't Jackson just invest personal capital to make up the difference he needs to close this project? Assuming whatever doesn't sell through Kickstarter will sell through his site and he comps whatever doesn't get made by backers than this is a sound strategy. Assume he has the capital to produce without crowd funding, why not run a KS project anyways to get as much as you can from backers and kick in the rest yourself?

On Kickstarter, you can start a project with a low goal and mention to those who think your goal is too low that you're making up the gap with your own funds.  But you can't invest in your own Kickstarter project.  If he was going to partially fund it himself, he had to create his goal with that in mind in the first place - he can't do anything about it after the fact that doesn't violate the TOS.

The reason for this would be for people trying to create fraudulent projects.  There was a project for a Durak deck that had an exceptionally simple design and the goal was in the low thousands.  In the last weeks of funding, they received a sudden boost in funding, to the tune of thousands of dollars.  This brings in all the people who were standing on the sidelines to see if the deck was even going to make its goal (rather than actually helping it reach the goal).  This can be a sign of someone artificially manipulating the funding levels to attract investment.  It can also be a sign of a potential fraud.  Kickstarter ended up shutting down the Durak deck project before it ended but after it had achieved its funding goal - people complained, they investigated and discovered that the mystery funding came from the project creator.

It's also why a lot of people look at Deckstarter with a jaundiced eye - every project there was pre-made before "crowdfunding" began, and only reached their goal after the Bucks themselves invested thousands of dollars.  I've said this before - that's not crowdfunding, it's retail in a crowdfunding costume.
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Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2014, 02:14:18 PM »
 

D. Dorn

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I read that last post quickly, and seriously thought I read, "...that's not crowdfunding, it's retail in a clown costume"

A brief LOL, wtf moment.  ;D

Anyway, I'm tempted to invest in my first brick, as I really like the design.  I just hate that this may not fund.
 

Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2014, 12:37:21 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I'm fond of it myself, but I've been buying a lot of decks lately.  I can't get them all, and I certainly can't get them all by the brick.  I think it's a terrible shame that this project has plateaued for so long.  This is a breakthrough project in many ways.  If he had released the Silver Arrows Slate edition without the Pearl Edition, this would have had a smaller goal and a greater chance to succeed.  Better yet, run a Kickstarter for the Pearl deck and simply take pre-orders for the other, assuming of course the funds will be enough for him to make the print run.

We NEED cheaper decks, and the one project actually offering them is well on its way to tanking.
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Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2014, 04:18:16 AM »
 

rjtomlinson1977

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I think it would help having a deck that appealed to a larger mass market. Your Average Joe isn't going to get excited over a deck like this. Something like his Federal 52 series would've sold like hotcakes. I think using the right approach and marketing you can sell decks for around $6 or $7.
 

Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2014, 06:12:01 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I think it would help having a deck that appealed to a larger mass market. Your Average Joe isn't going to get excited over a deck like this. Something like his Federal 52 series would've sold like hotcakes. I think using the right approach and marketing you can sell decks for around $6 or $7.

Actually, I think the design was just fine, really.  The marketing got all caught up in the complaints about how much you have to spend to get the limited edition pearl decks.  The deck had - and still has, though not in this project - the potential to be a solid success.
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Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2014, 06:40:42 AM »
 

rjtomlinson1977

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I didn't say anything is wrong with the design. I was just saying Kickstarter users who aren't card collectors wouldn't be drawn towards it for any specific reasons. For example, the Wizard of Oz cards on now has appeal to people who like the Wizard of Oz and the Vampire cards appeal to people who like vampire stories. My cards are always history based so they tend to appeal to history buffs. Of course, card collectors still support the project but if you project appeals outside the card community then you increase your chances to bring in new people.
But I agree this could be a very sucessful project. The only thing that needs to be re-tooled would be the goal amount and how the pledge tiers are set up.
 

Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2014, 07:38:41 AM »
 

PurpleIce

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I didn't say anything is wrong with the design. I was just saying Kickstarter users who aren't card collectors wouldn't be drawn towards it for any specific reasons. For example, the Wizard of Oz cards on now has appeal to people who like the Wizard of Oz and the Vampire cards appeal to people who like vampire stories. My cards are always history based so they tend to appeal to history buffs. Of course, card collectors still support the project but if you project appeals outside the card community then you increase your chances to bring in new people.
But I agree this could be a very sucessful project. The only thing that needs to be re-tooled would be the goal amount and how the pledge tiers are set up.

I have to agree with what Robert is saying here. This deck, though design is good, does not have any other qualities that will draw non-card collectors to come in and pledge. Unlike his previous decks for Feds and Sherlock Holmes, where they could attract an additional group of people, Silver Arrow seems to target mainly card collectors.

I also think this deck have the qualities to be successful. The question now is, will Jackson continue at this low cost high production project, or launch a more limited and expensive project? I simply feel the low cost one is still viable, but just needs something more to attract more pledges. The Pearl Edition could be a stretch goal. Tiers for uncut sheets can be released to include 1 free deck as well (where the cost is already factored in). Limited signed decks at a higher pledge tier could also be possible. While uncuts and signed decks are not what i would look for, i believe there are many collectors out there who dig into this kind of stuff. This are some ways to get more people buying while not really increasing your cost per deck.
 

Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2014, 09:16:18 AM »
 

troy

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I think the decks look great. I think the mistake was on the pricing. There's lots of research about pricing correctly, and funneling people upward. The pricing for this project was pretty flat and didn't reward people who wanted multiple decks. The price was great for the brick. My suggestion for Jackson when he decides to relaunch the Silver Arrows (assuming it doesn't spike all of a sudden and get funded) is:

$12 1 deck
$19 2 decks
$40 6 decks
$72 1 brick (1 pearl deck)
$130 2 bricks (2 pearl decks)

$9 add-ons (Slate)
$16 add-ons (Pearl)

In most projects with multiple decks, a big chunk of the backers are "1 deck of each/everything" type of people. Getting $30 from a big chunk of backers for a 2 deck project would pretty good, and the price incentive at the brick end would satisfy many of the people who want to take advantage of that.
 

Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2014, 02:58:06 PM »
 

Justin O.

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$12 1 deck
$9 add-ons (Slate)
$16 add-ons (Pearl)

This completely defeats what Jackson is trying to do with this project.
Kickstarter completely revolutionized the way I waste money.

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Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2014, 02:22:26 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I didn't say anything is wrong with the design. I was just saying Kickstarter users who aren't card collectors wouldn't be drawn towards it for any specific reasons. For example, the Wizard of Oz cards on now has appeal to people who like the Wizard of Oz and the Vampire cards appeal to people who like vampire stories. My cards are always history based so they tend to appeal to history buffs. Of course, card collectors still support the project but if you project appeals outside the card community then you increase your chances to bring in new people.
But I agree this could be a very sucessful project. The only thing that needs to be re-tooled would be the goal amount and how the pledge tiers are set up.

I have to agree with what Robert is saying here. This deck, though design is good, does not have any other qualities that will draw non-card collectors to come in and pledge. Unlike his previous decks for Feds and Sherlock Holmes, where they could attract an additional group of people, Silver Arrow seems to target mainly card collectors.

I also think this deck have the qualities to be successful. The question now is, will Jackson continue at this low cost high production project, or launch a more limited and expensive project? I simply feel the low cost one is still viable, but just needs something more to attract more pledges. The Pearl Edition could be a stretch goal. Tiers for uncut sheets can be released to include 1 free deck as well (where the cost is already factored in). Limited signed decks at a higher pledge tier could also be possible. While uncuts and signed decks are not what i would look for, i believe there are many collectors out there who dig into this kind of stuff. This are some ways to get more people buying while not really increasing your cost per deck.

In essence, I believe Robert's saying the deck lacks a theme or a "hook" to draw in people who aren't collectors.  But does a deck really NEED a hook?  The art itself can be enough for some - they look exotic yet familiar at the same time, and some people would use Silver Arrows for a late-night poker game or whatever other games you want to play with it.  (I left out collectors, magicians and cardists intentionally, since we're talking about attracting a demographic that doesn't fit any of those categories.)  Using the "sniff test" I've started using a lot lately, "Would my poker buddies play with this deck?,"  I have to say that there's really no reason why they wouldn't - it's attractive and has a general design that conforms to International Standard.

I think I can sum up what's been taking place.  Jackson has an idea for making a cheap, high-quality, custom deck.  The idea gets designed out and he picks a volume level that would allow him to undercut the cost of anything he's ever done aside from his decks he made for USPC.  Now, with such a large volume, Jackson decides he needs to hedge his bet a little - he doesn't want to end up with several thousand unsold decks piled up in his office, living room, etc.  He creates a second deck, this one as a short-run deck, only ten percent the size of the initial printing.  He only offers the deck to people buying by the brick, thinking that it's like a thank-you gift to all those who invest in the project at that level.  But this stirs up the collectors - "Why can't I just buy that deck, even at a premium price?  I don't need a brick of the original design..."  While there are collectors who don't bat an eyelash at buying a brick, particular if it's $6 a pack, but many people do have a hard time with that, especially in a less-than-robust economy, and collectors being collectors, they want that deck but don't want that whole brick.  So much time is spent by collectors talking about that brick deal that all else gets overlooked.  As far as they typical consumer, all they know is that unless they're inveterate poker players, they rarely buy twelve decks of anything, and if they do, it's cards they'll use at poker; plain-ol' Bikes and Bees, or maybe they'll skip the paper and just use plastic.  If they do use paper, they'll use two decks of the same design but different colors, and they're not going to by 10 or 11 of one deck and end up with 1 or 2 of the other - they want to buy evenly.  (But if they discover the faces don't match, they'll pass and get something matching instead.)

There's a number of ways this could have been dealt with better, as I see it.  One good one would have been to make the white deck available - for purchase - at a lower deck amount.  For example, if you order a minimum of three decks, you can buy one of the rare deck while supplies last, with an extra deck available to you for sale for every additional three unlimited decks you buy.  You can buy them, ignore them, whatever you wish, but it lowers the bar a bit more so "mere mortals" have a shot at buying one as well.  Make it the SAME PRICE as the original version - I know it doesn't cost $6 to make it, so you can likely sell it and add it to the larger order without losing any money (if fact, you could make maybe a buck or less on each).  Regardless, it serves its purpose - it pushes sales of the large print-run deck to make that a viable reality.  Think about it - Ellusionist and Theory11 have sold rare decks before, but always at a price that's within their general prices range, the only big exception I can think of being the Black Club decks.

Another could have been to simply split the print run, making about 10,000 of each instead of 20,000 of one and 2,000 of the other.  If the faces were matched, he might even be able to pry a discount from the printer for not needing to swap out the face plates for the second print run - I've seen it happen before, and when you're buying in bigger amounts, most printers tend to treat you more nicely, just like you'd see the difference between the treatment of a big tipper and a penny pincher at a typical restaurant.

I'm sure there's other ways to make it work better than this project has.

$12 1 deck
$9 add-ons (Slate)
$16 add-ons (Pearl)

This completely defeats what Jackson is trying to do with this project.

Troy, what were you thinking?  The object of the game here was to create a custom deck design that doesn't have to sell at typical custom-deck prices - perhaps something closer to what you'd pay for unlimited decks from producers like E, T11, TBC, etc.  What you're proposing is just another costly deck with pricing that favors the well-heeled - Jackson's decks are all being sold at a flat rate regardless of amount purchased, making it fair for everyone (except perhaps himself).
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Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2014, 09:02:53 PM »
 

Fess

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A great read but this thread is pretty difficult to follow about the decks themselves. ???

Does anyone know what finish will be on the two decks?
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Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2014, 10:16:51 PM »
 

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Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #64 on: October 20, 2014, 12:58:11 AM »
 

Fess

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Thanks Sprouts right in front of my face. It's been a rough month lol.
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Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #65 on: October 20, 2014, 02:35:43 PM »
 

Justin O.

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Jackson pulled the plug.

Looks like he is going back to the drawing board and will re-release this deck in a different form.

My hope is that he will try another large print, low cost project without offering any 'special thank you' decks to the high backers. I feel like this project may have had a stronger chance without the Pearl, as a single deck attempt. The Pearl became the focus and overshadowed the point of the project, which I really think people would have absolutely gotten behind if they weren't so dialated by the Pearl.
Making small limited runs of premium decks may have been the outcry, but I worry that Jackson will see that as people not wanting a large print low cost deck, which I really don't feel is the case.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 02:43:38 PM by Justin O. »
Kickstarter completely revolutionized the way I waste money.

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Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2014, 02:50:15 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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If all a company ever offers is limited, short-run decks, they'll never make the money to turn it into an ongoing business - it'll remain a sideline or a hobby.  Were I making decks, I'd WANT to make a stupid-common deck that everyone wants and uses - and the gaffed versions, too.  I might not beat the sales of Bicycle Standards anytime ever, but perhaps I'd become the deck of choice for magicians and card sharps - I could live with that, easily.  And if I was just lucky enough, it could become a full-time concern - who doesn't like the idea of being your own boss?  It's been done before so it's far from impossible - one needs the right amount of success and motivation.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 02:50:44 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2014, 07:46:23 AM »
 

alvinhy

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If all a company ever offers is limited, short-run decks, they'll never make the money to turn it into an ongoing business - it'll remain a sideline or a hobby.  Were I making decks, I'd WANT to make a stupid-common deck that everyone wants and uses - and the gaffed versions, too.  I might not beat the sales of Bicycle Standards anytime ever, but perhaps I'd become the deck of choice for magicians and card sharps - I could live with that, easily.  And if I was just lucky enough, it could become a full-time concern - who doesn't like the idea of being your own boss?  It's been done before so it's far from impossible - one needs the right amount of success and motivation.

So you are saying we should start designing decks that looks common and be used in casino's, magicians, everywhere?
I don't think Kickstarter is the right platform to do that. But maybe funded personally and then tried to hit the market would do the trick. It seems like most of the people on Kickstarter are looking for "creative" "Unique" designs that only they can get when pledging.
 

Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2014, 10:06:39 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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If all a company ever offers is limited, short-run decks, they'll never make the money to turn it into an ongoing business - it'll remain a sideline or a hobby.  Were I making decks, I'd WANT to make a stupid-common deck that everyone wants and uses - and the gaffed versions, too.  I might not beat the sales of Bicycle Standards anytime ever, but perhaps I'd become the deck of choice for magicians and card sharps - I could live with that, easily.  And if I was just lucky enough, it could become a full-time concern - who doesn't like the idea of being your own boss?  It's been done before so it's far from impossible - one needs the right amount of success and motivation.

So you are saying we should start designing decks that looks common and be used in casino's, magicians, everywhere?
I don't think Kickstarter is the right platform to do that. But maybe funded personally and then tried to hit the market would do the trick. It seems like most of the people on Kickstarter are looking for "creative" "Unique" designs that only they can get when pledging.

Well, "stupid-common" doesn't necessarily have to add up to boring.  There's room for creativity and uniqueness.  At one time the New Fan Back was a very common Bicycle card back and it's one of my favorites.
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Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2014, 10:36:33 AM »
 

cbkimble

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So you are saying we should start designing decks that looks common and be used in casino's, magicians, everywhere?
I don't think Kickstarter is the right platform to do that. But maybe funded personally and then tried to hit the market would do the trick. It seems like most of the people on Kickstarter are looking for "creative" "Unique" designs that only they can get when pledging.

I think this has a lot to do with the reasoning for this lack of funding. The design is amazing, like all of Jackson's work, but most of JRs fan base are those that only want LEs. With the new influx of young collectors, I think most are looking to make a quick buck on reselling. Jackson's work definitely sells and if you missed out on LEs during his campaign, you can usually pick them up in the aftermarket for a heavy price. The idea of Jackson having a "staple" deck is great but I don't think we'll be seeing another attempt at that anytime soon. I'll bet he adds a lot of bells and whistles to the tuck and back and print a smaller run of 1000-2500. This will cause the prices to then go from $6 a deck for slate to $12-18 and $20-30 for a pearl. 
 

Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2014, 10:42:14 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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So you are saying we should start designing decks that looks common and be used in casino's, magicians, everywhere?
I don't think Kickstarter is the right platform to do that. But maybe funded personally and then tried to hit the market would do the trick. It seems like most of the people on Kickstarter are looking for "creative" "Unique" designs that only they can get when pledging.

I think this has a lot to do with the reasoning for this lack of funding. The design is amazing, like all of Jackson's work, but most of JRs fan base are those that only want LEs. With the new influx of young collectors, I think most are looking to make a quick buck on reselling. Jackson's work definitely sells and if you missed out on LEs during his campaign, you can usually pick them up in the aftermarket for a heavy price. The idea of Jackson having a "staple" deck is great but I don't think we'll be seeing another attempt at that anytime soon. I'll bet he adds a lot of bells and whistles to the tuck and back and print a smaller run of 1000-2500. This will cause the prices to then go from $6 a deck for slate to $12-18 and $20-30 for a pearl.

This is 180 degrees away from what he was trying to accomplish with this deck.  Read the earlier posts about this deck.  Another good topic for some background would be this one.
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Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2014, 11:32:10 AM »
 

Fess

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I think it may be the nature of kickstarter that the LE decks are what people tend to respond to most. It's difficult to explain to someone that most all decks by their very nature are in fact limited. 2,500 decks doesn't seem like a limited run when another project has an LE of 1,000 decks, or as we've seen recently from some 500 decks. I really like this deck and I prefer the slate to the pearl myself. The one thing that made me want Pearls was the red indices, for which I was going to up my pledge by another brick or two.

In my opinion kickstarter is a great way to fund smaller print runs but it's very difficult to fund a high print run, again because of the nature of kickstarter. It's chalk a bock full of low print run decks, be them "never to be printed again" or "extremely rare limited edition" what have you. For Jackson to get funding for a large print run of any particular deck, I think it'll take several kickstarters loaded with overpriced LE's to build capital over time to fund a higher print run of something else in large part by himself. I'm quite happy to pledge for decks I like by the brick and quite often multiple bricks at that. That's just me though. Most people want 2 - 4 decks, LE, not LE, whatever doesn't matter 2 - 4 seems to be where the majority of pledges happen. Instead of "Woot! I get a brick for cheap!" it's "Why do I have to buy a brick, even if it is much less expensive than other bricks?"

Check out Draconian for example. It's funding campaign is about to end. It currently has the least expensive high quality mixed bricks with amazing tucks and great decks. 35 backers out of 466 as I type this are in for bricks. Meanwhile 390 are in for 4 or less decks. These numbers aren't unique to this campaign either, VeneXiana Dark has 31 backers that are in for bricks, out of 483. 413 of those backers are in for 4 or less decks. Again, same with Metal Rider Back only 17 backers out of 811 are in for bricks. 754 are in for four or less. These are only currently active campaigns, looking back the trend continues.

I liked these decks, I wanted them to succeed. There is definitely cause to rework the campaign and fire it up again later though. Have to cater to the customer and on kickstarter, the customer seems to want LE's and 4 or less decks. Never mind what's said on forums. We're just a drop in the bucket, that bucket gets filled by people who don't post much if at all. When we see these decks again, they will succeed. This campaign was a great experiment, from a glance at the comments a couple days ago quite a lively one too haha.
Part of my Collection updated infrequently but occasionally, when I remember. (I haven't in months.)
 

Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2014, 11:54:31 AM »
 

Anthony

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If all a company ever offers is limited, short-run decks, they'll never make the money to turn it into an ongoing business - it'll remain a sideline or a hobby.  Were I making decks, I'd WANT to make a stupid-common deck that everyone wants and uses - and the gaffed versions, too.  I might not beat the sales of Bicycle Standards anytime ever, but perhaps I'd become the deck of choice for magicians and card sharps - I could live with that, easily.  And if I was just lucky enough, it could become a full-time concern - who doesn't like the idea of being your own boss?  It's been done before so it's far from impossible - one needs the right amount of success and motivation.

I think you should Don, that would be awesome. You know enough people in the industry to make it happen.......why not?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 11:54:45 AM by Anthony »
 

Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2014, 11:56:46 AM »
 

alvinhy

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If all a company ever offers is limited, short-run decks, they'll never make the money to turn it into an ongoing business - it'll remain a sideline or a hobby.  Were I making decks, I'd WANT to make a stupid-common deck that everyone wants and uses - and the gaffed versions, too.  I might not beat the sales of Bicycle Standards anytime ever, but perhaps I'd become the deck of choice for magicians and card sharps - I could live with that, easily.  And if I was just lucky enough, it could become a full-time concern - who doesn't like the idea of being your own boss?  It's been done before so it's far from impossible - one needs the right amount of success and motivation.

I think you should Don, that would be awesome. You know enough people in the industry to make it happen.......why not?

You'll need to design something that everyone wants. :o
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 11:57:10 AM by alvinhy »
 

Re: Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (KS)
« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2014, 12:02:16 PM »
 

JacksonRobinson

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If all a company ever offers is limited, short-run decks, they'll never make the money to turn it into an ongoing business - it'll remain a sideline or a hobby.  Were I making decks, I'd WANT to make a stupid-common deck that everyone wants and uses - and the gaffed versions, too.  I might not beat the sales of Bicycle Standards anytime ever, but perhaps I'd become the deck of choice for magicians and card sharps - I could live with that, easily.  And if I was just lucky enough, it could become a full-time concern - who doesn't like the idea of being your own boss?  It's been done before so it's far from impossible - one needs the right amount of success and motivation.

Im going on 26 months doing nothing but that. How bout in another 24 months you buy me a steak dinner when I'm still doing it. :) Pretty good hobby.
Jackson Robinson
www.kingswildproject.com