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Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.

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publius

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So I'm still new to this, and trying to figure it out. I consider myself a cautious collector to some extent, and actually rather enjoy trying to fund my collecting through sales of other decks that I may have a surplus of. I don't strictly purchase on those grounds however - I must actually like the deck myself. That said, future performance of a deck is important to me. Why is it that some decks out there on the custom sites mentioned above, are introduced at say, $5.95 a deck - they sell out at some point, and the price is driven up significantly in the aftermarket; whereas other decks are introduced at a similar price, and are continually produced, meaning the value never really increases? How does one get the inside intel on this - or is it just a guessing game?

Let me add specifics: The new T11 Tycoons I like a lot. They are beautiful cards. Regardless, I'm going to purchase a few decks for myself. However, if I was to have an educated guess that these decks are going to go the way of the Red Artifice, or Blue Rounders, or [name your own highly sought after out of print deck] - I'll purchase a brick or two, hold onto them, and make a few bucks in the long run. If they're going to pretty much stick around forever like Guardians or Steampunks, or whatever, I'll just pick up a couple for my own benefit. So the basic question is - is it simply a guessing game that every collector puts their finger in the wind and takes a wild guess as to the outcome - or is there some inside information, or publication, or wizard of inside the card world guru out there that offers insight that I don't know about?

Thank you for whatever insight or input you have on this.
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Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2014, 05:12:36 PM »
 

Fess

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Price per deck used to be a good indicator of the size of the print run. Now it's a bit fuzzier given the crowdfunded decks tend to maintain the high price per deck it takes to fund a project.

Demand is what usually fuels a price increase, also usually fuels reprints and recolors. A word on buying bricks or decks as a future investment. Don't. ;)
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Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2014, 06:28:53 PM »
 

bruh man

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Price per deck used to be a good indicator of the size of the print run. Now it's a bit fuzzier given the crowdfunded decks tend to maintain the high price per deck it takes to fund a project.

Demand is what usually fuels a price increase, also usually fuels reprints and recolors. A word on buying bricks or decks as a future investment. Don't. ;)
True that's what it seems like, I also wouldn't recommend buying decks/bricks with the intention to resell. 
 

Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2014, 06:48:18 PM »
 

BenMorrisRains

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Just to play devils advocate, I don't think it is always bad to buy things to resell, if you can find the wanted deck for a cheap price. It's just like flipping anything else. If you see a deal, take advantage of it. You aren't going to make a ton of money doing this, but I average an extra 100 bucks a month, which usually pays for the cards I had bought anyways. So if you stop buying things, you can profit, but if it just goes back into cards you can at least even out.

I had bought 15 Exquisite decks at 8 dollars a pack which retailed for 15-20 a pack. Lets just say I've profited nicely on those. It was sort of dumb luck but sometimes you get lucky.
 

Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2014, 07:13:56 PM »
 

Card Player

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Let me add specifics: The new T11 Tycoons I like a lot. They are beautiful cards. Regardless, I'm going to purchase a few decks for myself. However, if I was to have an educated guess that these decks are going to go the way of the Red Artifice, or Blue Rounders, or [name your own highly sought after out of print deck] - I'll purchase a brick or two, hold onto them, and make a few bucks in the long run. If they're going to pretty much stick around forever like Guardians or Steampunks, or whatever, I'll just pick up a couple for my own benefit. So the basic question is - is it simply a guessing game that every collector puts their finger in the wind and takes a wild guess as to the outcome - or is there some inside information, or publication, or wizard of inside the card world guru out there that offers insight that I don't know about?

First let me say, I bought the theory11 Tycoons. They are, as you say beautiful cards and look even better in hand. I'm the same way, I only buy decks I really like. I will also buy a few extra to hold onto and sell at a later date.

I don't think you should compare alternative company/producer decks to each other in terms of whether or not the deck will continue to be reprinted.  You mention Tycoon's, so the best way to forecast if how long Tycoons will be available or how limited a print is to look at other examples of theory11 decks. The decks I would compare this print run to would be Red and Silver Monarchs, and Rebels. All of those examples were available in temporary "unlimited quantities" until sold out and likely wont be printed again. I believe the Tycoons will follow in that direction. It usually takes a few months for a print of this size to sell out. If these were a smaller print, they would describe them as limited and sell out in less then a week. Artisans on the other hand are reprinted. We know this because of each updated print date on the seal. With time and experience, you learn what to look for, how decks are described and then apply that info on past history of that particular company. Each company is different.

If I were you, I would buy the decks while you can. Hold on to them like you say your going to do, because these will most likely never be reprinted again in Red and Blue. That does not mean they won't print green for St Patty's Day. lol
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 08:43:47 PM by Card Player »
 

Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2014, 11:12:25 PM »
 

publius

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Great input and advice all the way around. Thank you. I just did tonight a good example of what im talking about. There was an auction on ebay for 4 fultons chinatown and one brown wynn deck. I won the lot for $110.50, purely with the intention of selling 2 or 3 of the fultons, probably making all of my money back. In other news, i just got my first deck of brown wynns! And if things go as planned, it will have been for FREE. ;D 
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 11:14:24 PM by publius »
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Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2014, 11:38:37 PM »
 

Fess

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Great input and advice all the way around. Thank you. I just did tonight a good example of what im talking about. There was an auction on ebay for 4 fultons chinatown and one brown wynn deck. I won the lot for $110.50, purely with the intention of selling 2 or 3 of the fultons, probably making all of my money back. In other news, i just got my first deck of brown wynns! And if things go as planned, it will have been for FREE. ;D 

That's completely different than what you were talking about. Those decks are established as something people will pay handsomely for. Congratulations on your brown wynns and your win, I hope things go as planned. :)
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Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2014, 11:45:44 PM »
 

Rob Wright

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Short of it is- Don't buy bricks, unless you want to own bricks.
I've bought very few. There has to be a good reason for me to buy a brick.
Example- I have a brick of Luxx sitting at the post office waiting to be picked up. With the price to ship from UK to US added in. The average cost per deck made since for me to do it.
I recently traded 2 original Empire decks for another deck that was on my bucket list. I had those sitting around for almost a year.- again this was a deal where buying 6 was discounted enough to make it worth it.

If you can get a great deal, go for it. Just be prepared to sit on them for a while, or until you get tired of seeing them and give them as gifts. 
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Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2014, 10:25:09 AM »
 

Card Player

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Great input and advice all the way around. Thank you. I just did tonight a good example of what im talking about. There was an auction on ebay for 4 fultons chinatown and one brown wynn deck. I won the lot for $110.50, purely with the intention of selling 2 or 3 of the fultons, probably making all of my money back. In other news, i just got my first deck of brown wynns! And if things go as planned, it will have been for FREE. ;D

I would never buy from eBay to resell on eBay. eBay prices of decks sold by individuals are usually what people are willing to pay (top dollar). While its true buying in bundles and then selling each item individually does make more money. You are also paying eBay fees.

The best thing that works for me in practice is when Ellusionist has a deal that includes free rare decks. Most of the time I own the decks already or never wanted it in the first place, so I'm willing to sell it. I buy what I want, and can sell the rare deck online making most of what I spent back. Its a WIN WIN WIN. 1. I get the product I want at a great price because I can sell the free decks. 2. Ellusionist makes money. 3. The person who buys the rare deck from me gets the deck cheaper because they don't have to spend what Ellusionist is asking to get it free.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 10:27:44 AM by Card Player »
 

Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2014, 12:09:07 PM »
 

publius

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That sounds good Card Player. This is the first time I ever bought something on Ebay with the intention of reselling on Ebay, just because I felt this was a particularly good price I could get the lot for, and then reselling individually like you said, is a better chance of making more money. Even if I don't come out even or profitable, I've been wanting to get a set of Wynns - and in the end, I'll have a deck for free or much less than anyone else can get them for. Plus a free or cheap Chinatown deck doesn't suck either. But otherwise, the only decks I have bought on Ebay have been for my own collection and no resale intention. Chinatowns are in huge demand on Ebay, and go for around $40/deck give or take. I could unload 2 or 3 in pretty short order. I may even offer one for a little cheaper here in the STISO forum, just to give anyone here a crack at a good deck cheaper than Ebay. I've got aome other stuff anyway I have been thinking about doing that with.

Fez - what I meant was that the idea of buying bulk and reselling singles was the same. Certainly it's different comparing established decks to unknown decks. Thanks for the feedback.
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Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2014, 01:14:51 PM »
 

bruh man

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Great input and advice all the way around. Thank you. I just did tonight a good example of what im talking about. There was an auction on ebay for 4 fultons chinatown and one brown wynn deck. I won the lot for $110.50, purely with the intention of selling 2 or 3 of the fultons, probably making all of my money back. In other news, i just got my first deck of brown wynns! And if things go as planned, it will have been for FREE. ;D

I would never buy from eBay to resell on eBay. eBay prices of decks sold by individuals are usually what people are willing to pay (top dollar). While its true buying in bundles and then selling each item individually does make more money. You are also paying eBay fees.

The best thing that works for me in practice is when Ellusionist has a deal that includes free rare decks. Most of the time I own the decks already or never wanted it in the first place, so I'm willing to sell it. I buy what I want, and can sell the rare deck online making most of what I spent back. Its a WIN WIN WIN. 1. I get the product I want at a great price because I can sell the free decks. 2. Ellusionist makes money. 3. The person who buys the rare deck from me gets the deck cheaper because they don't have to spend what Ellusionist is asking to get it free.
That's probably the best way to go about reselling decks, worst case scenario you're stuck with a free deck.  Buying a brick and reselling as singles will work also but if I were ever to do it it'll have to be a deck I'm interested in to begin with.

What are your thoughts on buying from Kickstarter and reselling? I backed my first Kickstarter with the new empire bloodlines and got a few of their black limited edition decks as add on's, though I highly doubt I sell any of them because they look beautiful and are printed by LPCC. Do people back Kickstarters with the intention of reselling?
 

Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2014, 08:51:04 PM »
 

Card Player

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Great input and advice all the way around. Thank you. I just did tonight a good example of what im talking about. There was an auction on ebay for 4 fultons chinatown and one brown wynn deck. I won the lot for $110.50, purely with the intention of selling 2 or 3 of the fultons, probably making all of my money back. In other news, i just got my first deck of brown wynns! And if things go as planned, it will have been for FREE. ;D

I would never buy from eBay to resell on eBay. eBay prices of decks sold by individuals are usually what people are willing to pay (top dollar). While its true buying in bundles and then selling each item individually does make more money. You are also paying eBay fees.

The best thing that works for me in practice is when Ellusionist has a deal that includes free rare decks. Most of the time I own the decks already or never wanted it in the first place, so I'm willing to sell it. I buy what I want, and can sell the rare deck online making most of what I spent back. Its a WIN WIN WIN. 1. I get the product I want at a great price because I can sell the free decks. 2. Ellusionist makes money. 3. The person who buys the rare deck from me gets the deck cheaper because they don't have to spend what Ellusionist is asking to get it free.
That's probably the best way to go about reselling decks, worst case scenario you're stuck with a free deck.  Buying a brick and reselling as singles will work also but if I were ever to do it it'll have to be a deck I'm interested in to begin with.

What are your thoughts on buying from Kickstarter and reselling? I backed my first Kickstarter with the new empire bloodlines and got a few of their black limited edition decks as add on's, though I highly doubt I sell any of them because they look beautiful and are printed by LPCC. Do people back Kickstarters with the intention of reselling?

I've been lucky enough to back TWO Kickstarter projects, 1. Royal Optik 2. Empire Bloodlines (like you). I think the great thing about Kickstarter projects is that the designers sell the decks for less per deck then they end up selling them on their own website after. In addition, most good Kickstarter campaigns sell limited versions of their decks to Kickstarter backers ONLY. When I backed Royal Optik both my Red and Black decks had a limited seal on them. That made the sale of the extra decks I bought much easier and more valuable.  I'm hoping the Limited Black/Gold Empire Bloodlines will be a Kickstarter Backer exclusive also. All the better.

I will say this. I buy decks because I like them. Period. Not because I think they will be worth money someday. That being said, because I use that as my rule, many think the same way I do and the decks end up being worth more then I paid. I don't necessarily make a profit from selling decks but it does make collecting decks much easier to manage and less of a strain on my wallet.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 08:55:22 PM by Card Player »
 

Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2014, 05:06:44 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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There's been SO many discussions on just this topic and its many variations!

Playing cards are NOT a good investment.  Period.

Remember all those people who thought they'd put their kids through college by buying "Death of Superman #1" in the black-bag edition?  There were so many made, comic book stores use them to fill drafty gaps in the walls or shred them to use as packing filler - they can hardly give them away, they're selling for so little now.  Maybe after several hundred thousand of them have become landfill under a municipal building somewhere will then even start to come back to the original retail value, never mind higher.  Those kids are goin' to community college!

There are many factors beyond simple rarity that affect the price of a deck of cards.  The original "Holy Grail" of card collectors was the Black Ghost by Ellusionist - not the current, second edition but the originals.  At first they weren't even a customer premium - they were handed out to selected celebrities in the magic community and friends of the company and such.  Demand peaked at around $400 a pack on eBay.  And that was a print run of 5,000 - considered rare at the time because that was the smallest run USPC would make and companies like Expert and Legends didn't exist yet.  The price eventually eroded to the point where they were going for maybe $50 a pack, sometimes even less.  It's only since Ellusionist gave away the last of the supply that the price has started to bounce back a little.

Meanwhile, another 5,000-printed deck, the Bicycle New Fan Back Gold Seal Edition in black, still sells for between $5 and $10.  And the super-rare white version, only 1,000 made, never commanded the price that the Black Ghost did.

Demand and supply, supply and demand.  Plain and simple.  Your deck might be one of only 1,000 or 500 made, but if only 100 or 200 people are actively seeking it out and interested in owning it, well, pricing is going to be a little soft.  Meanwhile, decks like the color editions of the Smoke and Mirrors decks were made in the low five figures but they sell for a noteworthy price because so many people want them.

Demand and supply both have a randomizing factor - time.  For supply, that number only decreases over time as decks are lost, destroyed, sold out, etc.  Supply can be fickle.  There's always a spike in price for a limited edition deck when it first comes out, but once the feeding frenzy dies down, the demand gets weaker and the supply is enough to meet it - or at least enough to meet the demand of those who can afford it at the current market.price.

Funny things happen in the marketplace - it's not usually the intentionally rare decks that become worth something, but the ones never meant to be rare which end up by uncontrollable circumstances becoming rare.  These are usually the vintage decks.  The biggest example are the War Series.  USPC released a series of four decks, one for each branch of the military, way back in early 1918 as a way to support the war effort by getting people together to play cards (a cheap entertainment requiring few resources) and to raise money for war bonds.  The decks were Big Gun (Army), Dreadnaught (Navy), Flying Aces (Army Air Corps, predecessor to the Air Force) and Invincible (Marine Corps).  They were not meant to be limited editions, not sold as collectibles, etc. - but the full set in mint, still-sealed condition could buy you a late-model used economy car.  When the Great War, now known as World War I, ended, the decks were pulled from production and demand for them dropped - I wouldn't be surprised if many if not most of the decks were returned to USPC by retailers as unsold goods.  They are possibly the decks with the shortest production runs of any of the Bicycle backs in the "Mrs. Robinson" book of the classic, vintage backs.

...and they were NEVER meant to be collectibles.

"Investing" in any of the modern, rare, "collectible" decks, especially with the intent to sell them any time within a generation from when you bought them, is a lot like buying cheapo penny stocks in bulk on the hopes that the price will rise a few cents and you can "make a killing" in the marketplace.  Craps might be a better option, or perhaps a slot machine.  A smart stock owner will buy stocks today for selling perhaps 30, 40, 50 years or more down the road, since the stock market's general tendency trends upward over long periods of time.  You diversify so you don't have all your investments in any one company or industry, and you buy reputable stocks to invest in reputable companies.  If you're younger, you toss in just a reasonable amount of risk, if the potential payoff is worth the chance; as you age, you progressively minimize your risk as you get closer and closer to the time you want to use that money for something else - a retirement, a house, a college education, a trip around the world, what have you.

Buy what playing cards you want because you love them, not because you think they're a good investment.  There are no "blue chip" decks out there, meant to be solid investment material for the long haul.
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Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2014, 12:58:18 PM »
 

publius

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Great response Don. I agree wholeheartedly. I should clarify - i am in no way trying to get rich at some point selling cards. I absolutely love playing cards, and if i can fund my hobby through selling of surplusses, ill be completely satisfied. Our family budget doesnt afford me the luxury of going out and purchasing every deck i want for myself, although i wish it did. So i had to get a little creative. Breaking even and having a collection of great decks is my only goal.

Its interesting what you said about what drives deck demand. One of my favorite decks is the Bicycle All Wheel No. 2, produced in 2012 by Deckso, who never did anything else. Its a reissue of the vintage USPC all wheel back. Only 2500 of these decks were even printed, and the seal even says xxx of 2500 on every box. I think this deck is awesome, bit the demand is strangely anemic and has been since their inception. But its a great deck.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 12:59:27 PM by publius »
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Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2014, 01:28:12 PM »
 

Anthony

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One thing I have to mention, slapping a numbered seal on a deck doesn't make it a collectable, or desireable. This latest Limited Run notion with numbered seals and no real substance to the deck itself is interesting.

And as Don mentioned, most decks that become those "Uber" must haves, were never really intended to be anything but a nice deck of cards.  :)
 

Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2014, 03:54:56 PM »
 

Card Player

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One thing I have to mention, slapping a numbered seal on a deck doesn't make it a collectable, or desireable. This latest Limited Run notion with numbered seals and no real substance to the deck itself is interesting.

And as Don mentioned, most decks that become those "Uber" must haves, were never really intended to be anything but a nice deck of cards.  :)

I agree with you about numbered decks.

I would rather "know" how many total printed then have the specific number of my deck printed on a tuck or seal. It almost defeats the purpose for those that don't get a low number. It does NOT make decks more collectible or more valuable UNLESS you get a very low number or very limited quantity exists (inside of 200).
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 05:32:51 PM by Card Player »
 

Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2014, 08:52:21 PM »
 

publius

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I just think its a cool deck because its a bike back that hasnt been in print in over 100 years. The numbered seal means less to me than simply the fact that there are only 2500 in existence. Ill agree that none of this particularly makes the deck more desirable, but it shouldnt make it less desirable either in my opinion. But it seems this deck is not very coveted for whatever reason. If only it said dan and dave on the box... :P
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Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2014, 03:44:27 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I just think its a cool deck because its a bike back that hasnt been in print in over 100 years. The numbered seal means less to me than simply the fact that there are only 2500 in existence. Ill agree that none of this particularly makes the deck more desirable, but it shouldnt make it less desirable either in my opinion. But it seems this deck is not very coveted for whatever reason. If only it said dan and dave on the box... :P

Desirability - like beauty - is in the eye of the beholder.  It's a great reprint, but it's just that - a reprint, as opposed to a partially or wholly unique and original design.  As such, it's not that much different (except in size of print run) from any other vintage reprint of a Bicycle back that's been released over the years, and there's been quite a few.  Hence, there's less market attention surrounding it.

Remember, at one time in history, packs of Jerry's Nugget playing cards were collecting dust in the display case of their souvenir shop, selling for a measly 50 cents a pack.  They're not attractive to say the least (certainly not to me, as the colors remind me of a circus tent) and the magicians who bought and used them did so only because they were cheap and performed well.  To this day, we don't have exact figures on how many of these decks were made - I'd wager it's at least in the tens of thousands.  But the epic myth surrounding them, plus a good deal of speculators in the marketplace, have driven the price of these cards deep into the hundreds of dollars, with no apparent sign of slowing down soon.

They were made back in 1970 as plain ol' cheap-ass souvenirs that few people cared much about and sat forgotten in a storage room for a number of years before finally being sold dirt-cheap by the casino.  Now they're probably the most expensive playing cards made in the era since the Federal tax on cards was repealed.

But none of that matters.  If you like the All-Wheel, buy them!  Enjoy them!

BTW: "All Wheel No. 2" is actually a mistake.  There was only the "All Wheel" back design.  Because it was listed alphabetically in Mrs. Robinson's book of Bicycle backs as the second design, the people putting the deck together assumed the "No. 2" was part of the design's title!
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Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2014, 08:44:07 AM »
 

publius

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Interesting. I always assumed they called it "No. 2" because it was a reissue of the original. That story makes me like them even more!
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Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2014, 10:37:25 AM »
 

BiggerDee

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Buy what you like and if it's a popular deck, feel free to buy a few (few) extras. If the price goes up and you want to resell, you may make a few bucks. You'll never make decent money unless you can buy wholesale and start a resale company, and then you'll have a lot of competition. Don is right...don't buy as an investment. Buy with the hope that if you do decide to sell someday, you'll get your money back. Always have that attitude for cards that you aren't planning on using personally. If you come out ahead, great, but hopefully you will do no worse than break even. If a thousand decks sell, then there are potentially one thousand decks that can compete with yours on the market. Every buyer, under certain circumstances, could also become a seller. Just have fun and if you make a buck here or there, consider yourself fortunate. You may buy 100 different brands of decks. If you clean up handily on one, then the cost of the other 99 that you speculated with is cancelled out.

The only sure-fire way to make a killing in playing cards is to invent a time machine and head to 90's and buy the Jerry's Nugget cards for a buck from their gift shop! :-)

Good luck and have fun!
 

Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2014, 03:29:12 PM »
 

publius

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I just fixed the flux capacitor on my delorian. Jerry's- here i come!
Graphic Designer; Playing Card Addict; soon to mix the two...
 

Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2014, 10:40:51 PM »
 

1greeneyedwonderwoman

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There's been SO many discussions on just this topic and its many variations!

Playing cards are NOT a good investment.  Period.

Remember all those people who thought they'd put their kids through college by buying "Death of Superman #1" in the black-bag edition?  There were so many made, comic book stores use them to fill drafty gaps in the walls or shred them to use as packing filler - they can hardly give them away, they're selling for so little now.  Maybe after several hundred thousand of them have become landfill under a municipal building somewhere will then even start to come back to the original retail value, never mind higher.  Those kids are goin' to community college!

There are many factors beyond simple rarity that affect the price of a deck of cards.  The original "Holy Grail" of card collectors was the Black Ghost by Ellusionist - not the current, second edition but the originals.  At first they weren't even a customer premium - they were handed out to selected celebrities in the magic community and friends of the company and such.  Demand peaked at around $400 a pack on eBay.  And that was a print run of 5,000 - considered rare at the time because that was the smallest run USPC would make and companies like Expert and Legends didn't exist yet.  The price eventually eroded to the point where they were going for maybe $50 a pack, sometimes even less.  It's only since Ellusionist gave away the last of the supply that the price has started to bounce back a little.

Meanwhile, another 5,000-printed deck, the Bicycle New Fan Back Gold Seal Edition in black, still sells for between $5 and $10.  And the super-rare white version, only 1,000 made, never commanded the price that the Black Ghost did.

Demand and supply, supply and demand.  Plain and simple.  Your deck might be one of only 1,000 or 500 made, but if only 100 or 200 people are actively seeking it out and interested in owning it, well, pricing is going to be a little soft.  Meanwhile, decks like the color editions of the Smoke and Mirrors decks were made in the low five figures but they sell for a noteworthy price because so many people want them.

Demand and supply both have a randomizing factor - time.  For supply, that number only decreases over time as decks are lost, destroyed, sold out, etc.  Supply can be fickle.  There's always a spike in price for a limited edition deck when it first comes out, but once the feeding frenzy dies down, the demand gets weaker and the supply is enough to meet it - or at least enough to meet the demand of those who can afford it at the current market.price.

Funny things happen in the marketplace - it's not usually the intentionally rare decks that become worth something, but the ones never meant to be rare which end up by uncontrollable circumstances becoming rare.  These are usually the vintage decks.  The biggest example are the War Series.  USPC released a series of four decks, one for each branch of the military, way back in early 1918 as a way to support the war effort by getting people together to play cards (a cheap entertainment requiring few resources) and to raise money for war bonds.  The decks were Big Gun (Army), Dreadnaught (Navy), Flying Aces (Army Air Corps, predecessor to the Air Force) and Invincible (Marine Corps).  They were not meant to be limited editions, not sold as collectibles, etc. - but the full set in mint, still-sealed condition could buy you a late-model used economy car.  When the Great War, now known as World War I, ended, the decks were pulled from production and demand for them dropped - I wouldn't be surprised if many if not most of the decks were returned to USPC by retailers as unsold goods.  They are possibly the decks with the shortest production runs of any of the Bicycle backs in the "Mrs. Robinson" book of the classic, vintage backs.

...and they were NEVER meant to be collectibles.

"Investing" in any of the modern, rare, "collectible" decks, especially with the intent to sell them any time within a generation from when you bought them, is a lot like buying cheapo penny stocks in bulk on the hopes that the price will rise a few cents and you can "make a killing" in the marketplace.  Craps might be a better option, or perhaps a slot machine.  A smart stock owner will buy stocks today for selling perhaps 30, 40, 50 years or more down the road, since the stock market's general tendency trends upward over long periods of time.  You diversify so you don't have all your investments in any one company or industry, and you buy reputable stocks to invest in reputable companies.  If you're younger, you toss in just a reasonable amount of risk, if the potential payoff is worth the chance; as you age, you progressively minimize your risk as you get closer and closer to the time you want to use that money for something else - a retirement, a house, a college education, a trip around the world, what have you.

Buy what playing cards you want because you love them, not because you think they're a good investment.  There are no "blue chip" decks out there, meant to be solid investment material for the long haul.

Agreed!
 

Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2014, 10:08:49 AM »
 

Marcus

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They were made back in 1970 as plain ol' cheap-ass souvenirs that few people cared much about and sat forgotten in a storage room for a number of years before finally being sold dirt-cheap by the casino.  Now they're probably the most expensive playing cards made in the era since the Federal tax on cards was repealed.

Nitpicking here, but I'm pretty sure they were not made to be souvenirs. However when they arrived from USPCC one of the guys in charge did not like the look of them and it ended up with them being held in storage for years until they started selling them as cheap souvenirs.
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Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2014, 11:51:03 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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They were made back in 1970 as plain ol' cheap-ass souvenirs that few people cared much about and sat forgotten in a storage room for a number of years before finally being sold dirt-cheap by the casino.  Now they're probably the most expensive playing cards made in the era since the Federal tax on cards was repealed.

Nitpicking here, but I'm pretty sure they were not made to be souvenirs. However when they arrived from USPCC one of the guys in charge did not like the look of them and it ended up with them being held in storage for years until they started selling them as cheap souvenirs.

If you say so.  I don't have details down to that level.  I can see, though, why someone at the casino didn't like the look of them!

It's easy to think that it was indeed meant as a souvenir deck due to the extra cards in the pack.  One even states "Compliments of...", like it was meant as a giveaway from the start, perhaps to be placed in the rooms of high rollers or something like that.  It's possible, though not as likely, that it was meant as a deck for use on the floor.  For that to be the case, the packaging would probably have been different, using a tuck box with a window as well as a space for marking when and by which dealer it was used, and the "diamond back" Bees and Aristocrats were still pretty popular for floor decks back then.

We could BOTH be true.  Perhaps it was meant as a gift shop deck or giveaway deck to be placed in the rooms or handed to bigshots.  Then your guy could have looked at them, thought they were a little too funky and opted to shove them in storage and forget about them.  Then, some years later, a porter cleaning out the storage spaces stumbles across these forgotten decks and the casino just wants them sold to get rid of them and make better use of the space, so they become the next 50-cent deck in the gift shop.  The price didn't get much higher than that when they were finally sold out - I think it was between $2 and $3 by then.  I'm told there's a video online somewhere of Dan and Dave waltzing in and purchasing a large number of them while they were still in stock.  The sell-out occurred quickly - the casino was approached by a magician/collector who offered to buy up the rest - the casino, wanting to get rid of the deck, happily accepted the offer.

But it's all conjecture.  I'm inclined to think that accurate records of what did happen were never kept, so there's no way to know the full truth of these cards, only bits and pieces of it.  Were this post a movie, it would have a title card that reads "Inspired by Real Events!" or "Based on a True Story!"  Y'see, I'm not a pack of playing cards but I play one on TV...  :))

Yeah, I haven't had much sleep the past several days...
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Re: Rarity? Value? Demand? General Discussion on D&D, T11, Ellusionist, etc.
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2014, 06:45:54 PM »
 

Marcus

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I can't say who mentioned it first time I heard that part, might've been Jason England but that's merely a guess as I no longer remember the details. I do believe it's mentioned briefly by Lee on his website but like I said - nitpicking. And as I've never been a huge fan of the JN's I never bothered looking into them that much (though their quite obnoxious color scheme is growing on me each day).

...And now we're off topic. We have to stop meeting like this, Don. ;D
Yes, I might be the guy you remember from that thing at that place way back when.