Kings - Madison, McKinnon, Ellusionist - MARKED DECK

[Card Player]

Yeah you hooligans!! Get off Mr Boyers lawn with your sassy mouths and your fancy ebay talk! 

Madison himself states the deck was made for him to use and  give away..  never to be sold. He then on the same page is selling said deck with a  markup  based on a lie that he  just got done perpetuating. He is making money off the susceptible. He is  feeding off those willing to  eat any kind of  turd sandwich story he throws in their direction,  so  long as as it's done in a  torchered soul, totally badass way . .  might fall under legal, but it is nowhere close to ethical. 

In closing..

Either he's one of the dumbest I've ever experianced OR he's one of the most fake.

SooooOOOoooOOOOo not the right time to misspell a word. 

Thank you for pointing that out.

Not to be taken out of context either. I'm not calling anyone dumb.

[Don Boyer]

The eBay sales may well have been his son.  I'm assuming his dad forked over some of his reserve, and the kid decided it was a good idea to trade them for cash.  It can't conclusively be tied to him.

However, if he said they'd never be sold, then he recants and sells them, I can see where that would be upsetting.  The prices he's charging do not help the situation, since we know what these things cost.  So while his in-person personality is great, at least in my own opinion, his business sense is a bit off the mark and alienating some of his fans.

Can we PLEASE put this to bed now?  We've all pretty much said our piece, so there's no need to continue.

Moving on - the topic is the KINGS deck.  I did ask if anyone else besides me would be glad to see that this deck doesn't have the Madison faces on them...

[Card Player]

The eBay sales may well have been his son.  I'm assuming his dad forked over some of his reserve, and the kid decided it was a good idea to trade them for cash.  It can't conclusively be tied to him.

However, if he said they'd never be sold, then he recants and sells them, I can see where that would be upsetting.  The prices he's charging do not help the situation, since we know what these things cost.  So while his in-person personality is great, at least in my own opinion, his business sense is a bit off the mark and alienating some of his fans.

Can we PLEASE put this to bed now?  We've all pretty much said our piece, so there's no need to continue.

Moving on - the topic is the KINGS deck.  I did ask if anyone else besides me would be glad to see that this deck doesn't have the Madison faces on them...

"Glad" would not be the word I would use. Not much going for it. Simple back design in typical Madison style. I would not expect anything more for the courts. Its either an arrangement of Madison courts or standard courts. Zzz Gold Box... Where have I seen that before?

[Msp062]

I love the box, but the cards are disappointing.  I wish companies would put just as much effort into the cards as they do the box.

[Don Boyer]

I love the box, but the cards are disappointing.  I wish companies would put just as much effort into the cards as they do the box.

How do you know if they're disappointing?  Have pictures been posted yet of the full deck and not just the back?  Are you holding a pack in your hands right now and not sharing with the rest of us? 

[Msp062]

Haha, no. I think the back design is very boring and not a lot of effort was put in.  I am also disappointed to see very dark red ink for the hearts and diamonds. I like my red a lot brighter.

[Don Boyer]

Haha, no. I think the back design is very boring and not a lot of effort was put in.  I am also disappointed to see very dark red ink for the hearts and diamonds. I like my red a lot brighter.

You're looking at the gaff card...

I see your points, but this, like most of Madison's decks, is probably aimed more at the "gambler" magician.  The simple, repeating back design can actually help with marking your own deck (unless it just comes marked in the first place).  The darker reds are not only easier on the eyes after a few hours into an all-nighter but are traditionally used by casinos.  In the days when they didn't use color CCTV monitoring, the standard bright red was too bright to appear clearly on the black-and-white surveillance recordings.  Bright red looks like pale gray while dark red is a medium black.

It's not to everyone's tastes, but that's the probable primary reasons for his decks to look as they do.

[Msp062]

Your explanation makes sense Don. I will pick up a few just to check them out.

[Rob Wright]

Ellusionist: Magic Beyond Belief

 9 hrs  ·

|| A GOOD DAY || It's a good day to be a Black Club member! Enjoy your early access to the brand new KINGS deck. Get crackin'!

[Paul Carpenter]

I had a rather lengthy note encompassing my feelings on this one, but it's probably counterproductive to my own image to be so negative.

 

[aldazar]

(unless it just comes marked in the first place)

It most definitely is... Pretty cool system too, though probably a bit too obvious in any situation where someone can examine more than a single card for more than a few seconds... Put another way, it would fail the "riffle test" in a half second...=P

PS: Please delete this post if that's too much of a spoiler or anything like that...

PPS: Paul, I personally would be interested to hear what your thoughts were... Always valuable (to me) to hear the views of different experts as I try to educate myself on the world of card design... Positive or negative, there's always something to be learned for me...

[Card Player]

(unless it just comes marked in the first place)

It most definitely is... Pretty cool system too, though probably a bit too obvious in any situation where someone can examine more than a single card for more than a few seconds... Put another way, it would fail the "riffle test" in a half second...=P

PS: Please delete this post if that's too much of a spoiler or anything like that...

PPS: Paul, I personally would be interested to hear what your thoughts were... Always valuable (to me) to hear the views of different experts as I try to educate myself on the world of card design... Positive or negative, there's always something to be learned for me...

Don't you think a system would be a selling point to buy the deck? The video makes no sense aside from promoting armed robbery and arson.

@ Paul: How politicly correct of you. Being that you are a designer, I don't blame you for keeping your opinions to yourself.   

[Justin O.]

Don't you think a system would be a selling point to buy the deck? The video makes no sense aside from promoting armed robbery and arson.

Those are both really strong selling points to me.

But I do really like the back design on this, it's simple and rather elegant. It reminds me of a designer fashion brand textile, which in a way I suppose it is supposed to emulate, but I think it's clean and attractive. As long as they aren't trying to sell them at $30 a deck I would love to pick up one or two of them.

[Marcus]

I believe they'll be sold for $7.95 with brick discounts.

[Mydnyghte]

I believe they'll be sold for $7.95 with brick discounts.

Yep. Plus, if you order a brick, you get "a special edition Gold Lustre prototype, used in the EPIC Kings trailer, and signed by Daniel and Peter. Less than 300 of these decks were printed - and once they're gone, they're gone."

The usual dealio from Ellusionist.

[Anthony]

If I created this same exact deck a few months ago, it woulod have been received with quite the....dare I say, "Critisism".

I think E is milking the Madison branding too much, and with little effort or originality involved. I'm sure decks will sell by the boat loads, so it won't really matter, but as far as design and concept, I just don't see it. Not to mention the marketing was so aimed at a specific "Buying" demographic it's not even funny.

If you like them buy them, if not wait for the next Madison deck.

[HolyJJ]

Apparently there's 289 of the shiny boxed decks... and in addition to the standard and shiny gold versions, there is also a third version of the deck.

[Paul Carpenter]

Apparently there's 289 of the shiny boxed decks... and in addition to the standard and shiny gold versions, there is also a third version of the deck.

Of course there are. I fully expect 5 versions of this one at least.

[Don Boyer]

I believe they'll be sold for $7.95 with brick discounts.

Actually we "lucked out" - it's the standard retail price.

If I created this same exact deck a few months ago, it woulod have been received with quite the....dare I say, "Critisism".

I think E is milking the Madison branding too much, and with little effort or originality involved. I'm sure decks will sell by the boat loads, so it won't really matter, but as far as design and concept, I just don't see it. Not to mention the marketing was so aimed at a specific "Buying" demographic it's not even funny.

If you like them buy them, if not wait for the next Madison deck.

I've stopped getting the Madison decks - too much of the same thing over and over.

My take on their campaign:

The video: starts interestingly enough, but doesn't show off the product in any way.  Sounds like they were going for a "1984" Mac image ad and ended up with something you're more likely to see in a no-budget B-grade heist movie, the kind a film student might make in his first year.  They were clever in conveying the robbery, but as aficionado of film and special effects, I can see where and how things were faked - especially the explosion at the end.

The cards: um, okay...  If I took any five of Madison's decks, placed one card each face-up on a table and tried to figure out which was from which deck, I'd fail miserably or get exceptionally lucky.  Marked?  Gee, what a surprise.  Does it use yet-another marking system that you have to memorize?  I'd say yes, based on the back pattern not being a Madison logo...

Madison (and probably McKinnon as well) did fantastic work on creating a marked version of the Bicycle Series 1800.  Plain numbers and letters secretively hidden in a deck design that is so off-beat, "going to the movies" becomes impossible because on that back there's movement EVERYWHERE.  They didn't go crazy with the faces, leaving them completely alone.  THAT is an EXCELLENT marked deck, even down to the stiffer stock used for better longevity.  I rarely buy by the brick - but this deck, I bought a brick.  They take some practice to read, but NO ONE will ever spot them as a marked deck unless you pull a really dumb routine that makes it obvious.

But this?  I'm sorry, but I'm just not motivated enough to buy them.  I wish I was, but aside from the new back, which is really a variation of what Madison did with his T11 deck if you think about it, nothing else jumps at me and screams "Buy me!"

Since the deck is marked, I moved it to the Bonanza board.  If you spot topics that are on marked decks in the Plethora, I want to move them all to the Bonanza board so please let me or Rob Wright know.  The Plethora decks should all be 100% straight - the only exception I'd make would be a one-way mark, obvious or subtle.

[Marcus]

I believe they'll be sold for $7.95 with brick discounts.

Actually we "lucked out" - it's the standard retail price.

Not sure where you're going with this one. I simply stated the price they'd be sold at. From what I can see the price is $7.95 with brick discounts so..? Are you agreeing? Disagreeing?

If I created this same exact deck a few months ago, it woulod have been received with quite the....dare I say, "Critisism".

I think E is milking the Madison branding too much, and with little effort or originality involved. I'm sure decks will sell by the boat loads, so it won't really matter, but as far as design and concept, I just don't see it. Not to mention the marketing was so aimed at a specific "Buying" demographic it's not even funny.

If you like them buy them, if not wait for the next Madison deck.

I've stopped getting the Madison decks - too much of the same thing over and over.

My take on their campaign:

The video: starts interestingly enough, but doesn't show off the product in any way.  Sounds like they were going for a "1984" Mac image ad and ended up with something you're more likely to see in a no-budget B-grade heist movie, the kind a film student might make in his first year.  They were clever in conveying the robbery, but as aficionado of film and special effects, I can see where and how things were faked - especially the explosion at the end.

The cards: um, okay...  If I took any five of Madison's decks, placed one card each face-up on a table and tried to figure out which was from which deck, I'd fail miserably or get exceptionally lucky.  Marked?  Gee, what a surprise.  Does it use yet-another marking system that you have to memorize?  I'd say yes, based on the back pattern not being a Madison logo...

Madison (and probably McKinnon as well) did fantastic work on creating a marked version of the Bicycle Series 1800.  Plain numbers and letters secretively hidden in a deck design that is so off-beat, "going to the movies" becomes impossible because on that back there's movement EVERYWHERE.  They didn't go crazy with the faces, leaving them completely alone.  THAT is an EXCELLENT marked deck, even down to the stiffer stock used for better longevity.  I rarely buy by the brick - but this deck, I bought a brick.  They take some practice to read, but NO ONE will ever spot them as a marked deck unless you pull a really dumb routine that makes it obvious.

But this?  I'm sorry, but I'm just not motivated enough to buy them.  I wish I was, but aside from the new back, which is really a variation of what Madison did with his T11 deck if you think about it, nothing else jumps at me and screams "Buy me!"

Since the deck is marked, I moved it to the Bonanza board.  If you spot topics that are on marked decks in the Plethora, I want to move them all to the Bonanza board so please let me or Rob Wright know.  The Plethora decks should all be 100% straight - the only exception I'd make would be a one-way mark, obvious or subtle.

Must say I don't get why some decks' threads are moved here just because they're marked. People aren't discussing them in terms of a magic accessory, this topic was because they're playing cards. Gaff decks, ID's etc I could understand because they are made for the one purpose of magic, but decks that are simply marked? What about reveals? I doubt more people who'd come to this forum to discuss this deck would do so because of anything magic-related over the general deck. Oh well, it's your board.

Either way - back on topic. The gold foil prototypes were gone almost immediately after general public release - We're talking around 3,400 decks sold just in bricks, and I'm guessing around the same amount sold in singles. Say what you will about a quite lackluster box design and simple back design but financially it's working at least. The back design is growing on me a bit but that's probably just because I tend to prefer monochromatic and/or simple back designs during the periods I have when I'm more into playing poker or practicing gambling material.

With that said - it feels like they spent around 20 times as much hours on the trailer than on the design. Perhaps it would've felt a bit more interesting had they managed to do the gold foil on all of the decks but since they switched to regular metallic ink it feels like it fell short. I feel no real connection between the deck and the box.

[Don Boyer]

I believe they'll be sold for $7.95 with brick discounts.

Actually we "lucked out" - it's the standard retail price.

Not sure where you're going with this one. I simply stated the price they'd be sold at. From what I can see the price is $7.95 with brick discounts so..? Are you agreeing? Disagreeing?

Oh, I thought you meant the price would be $7.95 with brick discounts - as in you'll get them at that price IF you buy by the brick.

Must say I don't get why some decks' threads are moved here just because they're marked. People aren't discussing them in terms of a magic accessory, this topic was because they're playing cards. Gaff decks, ID's etc I could understand because they are made for the one purpose of magic, but decks that are simply marked? What about reveals? I doubt more people who'd come to this forum to discuss this deck would do so because of anything magic-related over the general deck. Oh well, it's your board.

Either way - back on topic. The gold foil prototypes were gone almost immediately after general public release - We're talking around 3,400 decks sold just in bricks, and I'm guessing around the same amount sold in singles. Say what you will about a quite lackluster box design and simple back design but financially it's working at least. The back design is growing on me a bit but that's probably just because I tend to prefer monochromatic and/or simple back designs during the periods I have when I'm more into playing poker or practicing gambling material.

With that said - it feels like they spent around 20 times as much hours on the trailer than on the design. Perhaps it would've felt a bit more interesting had they managed to do the gold foil on all of the decks but since they switched to regular metallic ink it feels like it fell short. I feel no real connection between the deck and the box.

Marked decks get moved here because some collectors practically despise them - they want decks they can use at a poker table without being suspected of cheating.  Even one-way decks are anathema to them.  They want a 100% straight deck.  Marked decks aren't straight.  Marked decks aren't just for magic, sure - they're great for cheating at cards, too!  The fact that I can play solitaire with them as well doesn't change that.  It's nothing to do with the design, everything to do with the simple fact that they are indeed marked.

Sure, it's working financially.  But who prototypes a deck in quantities exceeding 3,000 by a wide margin?  They weren't prototypes - they were sales gimmicks, and apparently worked very well for them.  They probably ordered 3,000 from USPC and USPC overran the order by a wee bit more than the usual 10%.

Like I said, too much like what's come before, so I'm not exactly rushing to the battlements to blow a trumpet announcing their arrival.

[Card Player]

Wow! Boyer moved the thread where deck threads go to die.

[Will W.]

Wow! Boyer moved the thread where deck threads go to die.

Which, in my opinion, is exactly where it should be...

[Magic_Orthodoxy]

Just finished watching D+M and P+M in the "Kings" video, and you'll never hear me bad mouth them or "E" on camera, but.... wow that video was bad.

Is it nice to get a video download with a deck of cards? Sure! Could you spend a little more than an hour filming it in your back yard?

First P+M takes the cellophane off the deck and lays it off camera, and then later while he's talking it blows back across his table like a tumbleweed and he ignores it.

P+M then shows one trick with a Dbr 3 different ways and all of them are in a word... awful. The effect is so simple there's no way he "does this trick every day." Not to mention, that one time he performs a top change for the camera and then does it again, but he FORGETS and when he goes in for the reveal he glimpses his card and notices with the corner of his eye that he missed a beat and is holding the wrong card, so he stalls with patter (for you the viewer) until he feels you've forgotten and then he goes in for an additional top change.

One time he accidentally cuts the card to the bottom of the deck, but then realizes his effect is with a Dbr... so he says "you can cut it to the bottom... OR THE TOP" and then proceeds to show the trick with the card on the top. (how in the word would you use a Dbr with a selected card on the bottom?)

Another time he cuts the card to the top but does it so fast that when he lays the deck on the table, the card blows off and flips over on camera.

In the second half, D+M spends most of his time re-teaching you "Angle Z" but seriously why am I getting this gaff? The nature of the effect is I can only do it... once. Then my gaff is gone and yea....

D+M talks about the marking system briefly and then proceeds to teach an effect where you read the backs, but instead of reading the backs... D+M flips the card over and says "for time's sake this is faster." So... he hasn't memorized his own system.

And lastly, D+M has a last minute "idea" and proceeds to show you a simple force that he forgets the name to... and someone off camera reminds him that its the "cross-cross" force

oi vey

[aldazar]

Yeah, definitely don't even consider using this deck for a poker game (or any game with money involved) - you might not walk away from that game...=P