Bicycle Nouveau [KS] 2nd try

[Fess]

Now that this will be launched on KS, I can participate.

Previously, I refused to pledge, due to... well indiegogo. I'd vowed to ever use that site again. It sucks that indiegogo, indiegogo'd you Don.

[Rose]

Now that this will be launched on KS, I can participate.
Previously, I refused to pledge, due to... well indiegogo. I'd vowed to ever use that site again.

Kickstarter is SO much better. What happened to you Fes?

[Fess]

Double charge shenanigans, incomplete refund due to exchange fee, etc. Once was enough for me.

[Justin O.]

So... Kickstarter then?

[bfplayingcards]

Now that this will be launched on KS, I can participate.

Previously, I refused to pledge, due to... well indiegogo. I'd vowed to ever use that site again. It sucks that indiegogo, indiegogo'd you Don.

Double charge shenanigans, incomplete refund due to exchange fee, etc. Once was enough for me.

Thank you for your support Fes And I'm sorry about that...IGG should review their policy if they want to be serious competition for KS

So... Kickstarter then?

That's right Justin O., we're going on Kickstarter with NOUVEAU Bicycle

[Don Boyer]

Though it's not our fault I must say I'm really sorry for all this we contacted them again, I'll let you know if there's something new...i honestly don't know why they charged you already because it's a fixed funding campaign and we don't get any money unless it's funded, so i don't understand this policy...anyways, I'll keep you updated

The reason is actually pretty simple.  It's a financial concept called "float".

Let's pretend for a moment I bought you a gift card for US$50.  You don't spend anything on it for a few months.  Does the money just sit there?  No, the money is taken by the retailer into a bank account - a really large account holding the cash value of all the cards issued - and they earn interest on that money while it sits there unused on your card.  If you've ever carried a phone card or a public transit pass with a cash value attached to it, those earn their respective companies float as well.  By collecting my cash and not returning it for weeks, IGG is earning float on my money.

I'm going to log in there and lodge a complaint, then I'm calling my bank in the morning to reverse the charge.  It's just another nail in the coffin of IGG, in my opinion - I'll never back with them again.

EDIT: read this message I just sent them.  I wonder if it will spark a fire under anyone's seat over there?

I've backed one project on your site.  The money was charged to my debit card immediately, but the refund due to the project being canceled won't occur for almost four weeks, according to the message I received from the project creator - I'm being forced to wait until the scheduled end of the project.

This process is idiotic at best.  There is no way on Earth I'm permitting the money to remain in someone else's account for that long and it should never have been charged against my account in the first place, not until the project was a done deal and successfully closed.

I'll be contacting my bank in the morning for an immediate reversal of the charge.  You might consider a better means by which to make money other than using float, because that teeny bit of interest you earned cost you a potential backer.  I will never back another IGG project again - been burned once, learned my lesson.  I doubt that any of my forum's participants will be sticking around, either, after I've discussed this situation with them - all 10,000-plus of them...

Sincerely,
Don Boyer
Head Administrator and COO
PlayingCardForum.com
Affiliated with 52 Plus Joker, the North American Playing Card Collectors' Club

[bfplayingcards]

I'm going to log in there and lodge a complaint, then I'm calling my bank in the morning to reverse the charge.  It's just another nail in the coffin of IGG, in my opinion - I'll never back with them again.

EDIT: read this message I just sent them.  I wonder if it will spark a fire under anyone's seat over there?

I've backed one project on your site.  The money was charged to my debit card immediately, but the refund due to the project being canceled won't occur for almost four weeks, according to the message I received from the project creator - I'm being forced to wait until the scheduled end of the project.

This process is idiotic at best.  There is no way on Earth I'm permitting the money to remain in someone else's account for that long and it should never have been charged against my account in the first place, not until the project was a done deal and successfully closed.

I'll be contacting my bank in the morning for an immediate reversal of the charge.  You might consider a better means by which to make money other than using float, because that teeny bit of interest you earned cost you a potential backer.  I will never back another IGG project again - been burned once, learned my lesson.  I doubt that any of my forum's participants will be sticking around, either, after I've discussed this situation with them - all 10,000-plus of them...

Sincerely,
Don Boyer
Head Administrator and COO
PlayingCardForum.com
Affiliated with 52 Plus Joker, the North American Playing Card Collectors' Club

This is their reply to my request:

"Actualizado por: Rebecca, 11 nov. 14:45:
Hi there,

Thanks for reaching out. As I mentioned in Ticket #494322, this was a one-time exception we made for you. Because your campaign is Fixed Funding, I recommend you revise your campaign tagline, pitch text, and updates to tell people you are no longer raising money and explain to them the reasoning. If you don't meet your goal, which you shouldn't if you revise to explain you're no longer collecting funds, then your contributors will be automatically refunded once the time runs out on your campaign. This will happen automatically within 5 business days after your deadline, which is December 6th.

Finally, for more information on what you can and cannot edit after your campaign is live, please see our Help Center article: http://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/526546

Thanks for your understanding.

Cheers,

Rebecca
Customer Happiness
Indiegogo (www.indiegogo.com)"

Back in august, when we first launched this campaign, we asked for it to be canceled after some days in order to re-launch it in some time after major changes we had to make. We tried to find a reasonable way to get it on KS, meaning that we didn't want to go from the creators and owners of this deck to designers for a third party; we couldn't because many were busy at that point with other projects and others offered us conditions we didn't like. That's the reason we went back to IGG and that was a major mistake. Now we finally found someone who will help us start it on KS and all that's left is this IGG issue. I can see why they don't want to refund you before the deadline or why they charged you in the first place, your explanation is downright reasonable. Unfortunately, this is their reply...

[Don Boyer]

This Rebecca person works in a department called "Customer Happiness"??  Never have I seen such a whopper of an oxymoron in my entire life.

The Help Center article they provided to you via that link is gone.  Just tried to access it and this is what the page said:

oops.
The page you were looking for doesn't exist

You may have mistyped the address or the page may have moved.

It's like the blind and deaf quadriplegic leading the blind and deaf quadriplegic.  Even they don't know what the hell is going on.  If anyone "mistyped" the address, it was Rebecca, Queen of Customer Happiness...

[bfplayingcards]

This Rebecca person works in a department called "Customer Happiness"??  Never have I seen such a whopper of an oxymoron in my entire life.

The Help Center article they provided to you via that link is gone.  Just tried to access it and this is what the page said:

oops.
The page you were looking for doesn't exist

You may have mistyped the address or the page may have moved.

It's like the blind and deaf quadriplegic leading the blind and deaf quadriplegic.  Even they don't know what the hell is going on.  If anyone "mistyped" the address, it was Rebecca, Queen of Customer Happiness...

Your observation is dead on. Their reply is a pretty ironic one. I wrote them again earlier

"Bona fide Playing Cards <bonafideplayingcards@gmail.com>
08:38 (1 hour ago)

to support
With this policy it's not only us who lose but also Indiegogo because many people refuse to back a project they like just because it's on your site. The link you sent doesn't open; we want to change, at least, the deadline to the nearest date possible."

I'm pretty sure their answer will be whether we know how to read because it states in their conditions that we can't change the deadline, but we lose nothing for trying

[Don Boyer]

All I know is they have my money and I'm getting nothing in return.  I'll tell my bank and they'll yank it from their account tout de suite.

[Rose]

Wow, IGG sounds like a nightmare.  Sounds like I have dodge an angry bullet.

[Don Boyer]

I was preparing to contact the bank this evening when I discovered these three emails in my in-box...

THE FIRST EMAIL - PAYPAL

Indiegogo.com just sent you a refund
Nov 12, 2014 16:54:35 EST
Transaction ID: {REDACTED}
Dear Donald Boyer,

Indiegogo.com just sent you a full refund of $26.00 USD for your purchase.

If you have any questions about this refund, please contact Indiegogo.com.

The refund will go to the card you paid with.

To see all the transaction details, please log into your PayPal account. It may take a few moments for this transaction to appear in your account.

Merchant information
Indiegogo.com
support@indiegogo.com
http://www.indiegogo.com
866-641-4646
Note from merchant
None provided
Original transaction details
Description   Unit price   Qty   Amount
Purchase from Indiegogo.com         $26.00 USD

Total:   $26.00 USD
 
Refund to Visa Debit Card XXXX-XXXX-XXXX-{REDACTED}:   $26.00 USD
Invoice Number: {REDACTED}
Sincerely,
PayPal

THE SECOND EMAIL - JORDAN, PAYMENTS SUPERVISOR AT INDIEGOGO

Jordan, Nov 12 13:54:
Hi there,

Thanks for reaching out. Contributions made through Indiegogo are typically final and nonrefundable. Please see our Refund Policy here:
http://support.indiegogo.com/entries/21081743-refunds

Because a contribution is a transaction that takes place between the campaign owner and the contributor, we normally ask the contributor to reach out directly to the campaign owner if they're interested in receiving a refund. However, as a one-off I've issued a refund for your contribution.

I hope that helps, and please let us know if you need additional assistance with anything else!

Cheers,

Jordan
Payments Supervisor
Indiegogo (www.indiegogo.com)

THIRD EMAIL - FROM "THE INDIEGOGO TEAM"
Your Contribution Has Been Refunded
Hello boyerhome,
Your contribution to ‘NOUVEAU Bicycle Playing Cards: CANCELED’ has been refunded. You should see a full refund for your contribution within 3 - 5 business days. Here are the details of your original contribution:

Date of Contribution: Fri Oct 31
Contribution Amount: $26.00
Payment Method: PayPal
Perk: #2 SPECIAL LIMITED OFFER

Please reach out to Customer Happiness if you have any questions about your refund.

Sincerely,
The Indiegogo Team

It would seem that my letter was convincing.

Check out the link in the second email.  Among other interesting things, they state that you have to seek refunds from the project creator (this despite the fact that the project creator won't get the funds) and that projects CAN'T be canceled.

In conclusion, NEVER, EVER back on IndieGoGo.  Never create a project on IndieGoGo.  In fact, have absolutely nothing to do with IndieGoGo.  I'm heading there now to cancel my account.

[bfplayingcards]

I was preparing to contact the bank this evening when I discovered these three emails in my in-box...

THE FIRST EMAIL - PAYPAL

Indiegogo.com just sent you a refund
Nov 12, 2014 16:54:35 EST
Transaction ID: {REDACTED}
Dear Donald Boyer,

Indiegogo.com just sent you a full refund of $26.00 USD for your purchase.

If you have any questions about this refund, please contact Indiegogo.com.

The refund will go to the card you paid with.

To see all the transaction details, please log into your PayPal account. It may take a few moments for this transaction to appear in your account.

Merchant information
Indiegogo.com
support@indiegogo.com
http://www.indiegogo.com
866-641-4646
Note from merchant
None provided
Original transaction details
Description   Unit price   Qty   Amount
Purchase from Indiegogo.com         $26.00 USD

Total:   $26.00 USD
 
Refund to Visa Debit Card XXXX-XXXX-XXXX-{REDACTED}:   $26.00 USD
Invoice Number: {REDACTED}
Sincerely,
PayPal

THE SECOND EMAIL - JORDAN, PAYMENTS SUPERVISOR AT INDIEGOGO

Jordan, Nov 12 13:54:
Hi there,

Thanks for reaching out. Contributions made through Indiegogo are typically final and nonrefundable. Please see our Refund Policy here:
http://support.indiegogo.com/entries/21081743-refunds

Because a contribution is a transaction that takes place between the campaign owner and the contributor, we normally ask the contributor to reach out directly to the campaign owner if they're interested in receiving a refund. However, as a one-off I've issued a refund for your contribution.

I hope that helps, and please let us know if you need additional assistance with anything else!

Cheers,

Jordan
Payments Supervisor
Indiegogo (www.indiegogo.com)

THIRD EMAIL - FROM "THE INDIEGOGO TEAM"
Your Contribution Has Been Refunded
Hello boyerhome,
Your contribution to ‘NOUVEAU Bicycle Playing Cards: CANCELED’ has been refunded. You should see a full refund for your contribution within 3 - 5 business days. Here are the details of your original contribution:

Date of Contribution: Fri Oct 31
Contribution Amount: $26.00
Payment Method: PayPal
Perk: #2 SPECIAL LIMITED OFFER

Please reach out to Customer Happiness if you have any questions about your refund.

Sincerely,
The Indiegogo Team

It would seem that my letter was convincing.

Check out the link in the second email.  Among other interesting things, they state that you have to seek refunds from the project creator (this despite the fact that the project creator won't get the funds) and that projects CAN'T be canceled.

In conclusion, NEVER, EVER back on IndieGoGo.  Never create a project on IndieGoGo.  In fact, have absolutely nothing to do with IndieGoGo.  I'm heading there now to cancel my account.

It's funny how they keep saying to contact the campaign creators for the refund. This is what they sent us in reply to our last mail

"
Web
more
Primary
CANCEL CAMPAIGN
Indiegogo Support

Bona fide Playing Cards
We'd like to cancel our current campaign on your site, because we'd like to apply some changes. Amount and duration are among those changes. As it'...
Show 7 read messages
A
Amber
to me
4 hours agoDetails
## Please do not write below this line ##

Actualizado por: Amber, 12 nov. 18:00:
Hi there,

Thanks for your reply, and your additional thoughts on this matter. I understand you've outlined that your contributors do not wish to back your project. Indiegogo posts the funding type of the campaign and contributors can easily learn what that means via tool tips and our help center. It is completely the contributors choice whether or not to fund a project.

That said, as was outlined to you in our correspondence in Ticket #494322, we had made a one-time only exception. We are unable to make any further such changes or exceptions to your campaign page. It will end on it's currently deadline of December 06, 2014 at 11:59pm PT. In the event that you do not meet your goal by that date and time, all your contributors will be refunded within 5 days of your campaign ending. If your contributors have questions about when they can expect their refund, you can outline that fact and direct them to this help center article: http://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/526876-Refunds

That said, we see that you have already done as suggested and have updated your campaign page to note the canceled status of your campaign page, and have posted a new update to the campaign page (https://admin.indiegogo.com/projects/nouveau-bicycle-playing-cards-canceled#activity).

We appreciate your understanding and which you luck with your project.

Best,

Amber
Customer Happiness Supervisor
Indiegogo (www.indiegogo.com)"

That said, you're right. No more IGG

[Don Boyer]

That said, you're right. No more IGG

With all the cockamamie policies they have in place, it's no wonder that they're a crowdfunding also-ran.

[Fess]

Back on the subject of this wonderful deck and forthcoming KS campaign. Can we expect similar pledge tiers or will there be changes to those to suit the slightly different needs for success on KS? I'm making an attempt (I know it's futile holiday season is rough but I'm trying haha) at planning out the December hobby budget, so a little curious if you would share your thoughts there.

Secondly about the face cards, what are the odds of doing away with the discoloring around the outer edge and going with just the ivory color full bleed on the card faces? I like the aged color around the courts and pips, just feel like a clean edge on the face cards would make that pop a bit more and be very attractive.

[bfplayingcards]

Back on the subject of this wonderful deck and forthcoming KS campaign. Can we expect similar pledge tiers or will there be changes to those to suit the slightly different needs for success on KS? I'm making an attempt (I know it's futile holiday season is rough but I'm trying haha) at planning out the December hobby budget, so a little curious if you would share your thoughts there.

Secondly about the face cards, what are the odds of doing away with the discoloring around the outer edge and going with just the ivory color full bleed on the card faces? I like the aged color around the courts and pips, just feel like a clean edge on the face cards would make that pop a bit more and be very attractive.

hahah we'll review the perks again Fes but there will hardly be any major changes, though I can say now that we'll add a couple of limited perks at a lower price (aside from the ones we already had)

About the coloring, Don Boyer also commented on that; I'll make some changes and post it this weekend Right now I'm working on the back, which I'll try to upload this weekend as well

[Justin O.]

Once this goes up on KS I am all over it!! I have really loved this deck and wanted to be a part of it from the beginning, but I was weary of IGG and brand loyal to KS, I am really excited that I will be able to support this without having to make any allowances. Can't wait to see this go live!!

[bfplayingcards]

Once this goes up on KS I am all over it!! I have really loved this deck and wanted to be a part of it from the beginning, but I was weary of IGG and brand loyal to KS, I am really excited that I will be able to support this without having to make any allowances. Can't wait to see this go live!!

Thank you Justin O. for your support!

[Collector]

...  I doubt that any of my forum's participants will be sticking around, either, after I've discussed this situation with them - all 10,000-plus of them...

Sincerely,
Don Boyer
Head Administrator and COO
PlayingCardForum.com
Affiliated with 52 Plus Joker, the North American Playing Card Collectors' Club[/i]

[Don Boyer]

...  I doubt that any of my forum's participants will be sticking around, either, after I've discussed this situation with them - all 10,000-plus of them...

Sincerely,
Don Boyer
Head Administrator and COO
PlayingCardForum.com
Affiliated with 52 Plus Joker, the North American Playing Card Collectors' Club[/i]

Ah, my legions await...    ROTFLMAO!

(Damn image was so huge my browser nearly choked on it!  Had to use an image viewer!)

[bfplayingcards]

No more aged background, what do you think?

[Don Boyer]

No more aged background, what do you think?

Both images look great.  The "halo effect" in the bottom image seems to give the card a three-dimensional quality that's rather nice.

Either would be fine, I feel.  I like that the aged look is gone!  Never once when I've gone to a fine art museum did they smear dirt on the walls around the hanging artworks to make the wall look older...   

[Fess]

I agree they both look very sharp. The halo effect on the second does add drama to the image. Both are nice.

[Justin O.]

The first one feels more in line with the Art Nouveau movement, the shadow ads a sense of modern aesthetic that I feel pulls away from the image and breaks up the continuity of the theme a little bit.

[bfplayingcards]

Both images look great.  The "halo effect" in the bottom image seems to give the card a three-dimensional quality that's rather nice. Either would be fine, I feel. 

I agree they both look very sharp. The halo effect on the second does add drama to the image. Both are nice.

The first one feels more in line with the Art Nouveau movement, the shadow ads a sense of modern aesthetic that I feel pulls away from the image and breaks up the continuity of the theme a little bit.

thank you all I don't know yet whether I'll use the halo effect or not; Justin O. you're right, it's not in line with Art Nouveau but rather a modern and three dimensional touch. I have yet to decide if I'll go with pure Nouveau or not

I like that the aged look is gone!  Never once when I've gone to a fine art museum did they smear dirt on the walls around the hanging artworks to make the wall look older...   

haha that's a nice example