Found SIGNED decks in my collection - How to find out WHO they are?

[adioking]

Hey guys,

I came over here to ask you guys about some decks of cards I uncovered as part of my casino chip collection. I picked up a bunch of playing cards along the way, and this deck seemed pretty normal looking until I went to open up and use of the packs today for a card game. Seems that every single pack of these particular Bee Cambric Finish cards that I have are signed on the inside of the cover - something I've never seen before in my life.

The cards used to belong to a gentleman who sold them to me as part of an estate sale, they were his grandfathers. The old man lived in Las Vegas since its beginning, and had a massive collection of just about everything you can think of related to casino.

So, I'm going to post a pick of a couple packs and ask the golden question - How do I find out who signed these decks? Did I just stumble across something that might have incredible value? 

Thanks for any help!

Dan

[adioking]

There were a small amount of chips that came in the collection that are labeled "PGI - A new day in gaming" with the phone number (800) 759-4263. I wonder if that could be related as each of these decks seem to have "PGI" or "PG II" or "PG 2" on them above the signature.

[ecNate]

Looks like they were a casino games supplier and often attended gaming trade shows.  The date may be related to that or perhaps they got some hotshots to sign decks for some corporate events.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/progressive-gaming-international-files-bankruptcy
http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/spos/company/progressive-gaming-international-corp-2130-46224
http://www.trademarks411.com/marks/75405923-progressive-games-inc

Palm Gaming International started in 1996 so that wouldn't fit and if you search you'll find people who received chips that were given away by PGI (or PGII) at gaming shows in 1991 as well.  Best guess, maybe that gets you started.  EDIT - Link: http://www.thechipboard.com/archives/archives.pl/bid/301/md/read/id/921/sbj/pgi-a-new-day-in-gaming/

[ATS]

I am unable to help with the signatures, albeit PGI is most likely Progressive Gaming Inc, which has been bought out by IGT (one of the largest slot manufacturing companies in the world). This company also had an international section called Progressive Gaming International Inc - which would explain the PGII. Casino Chip and Gaming Token Collectors Club would be able to confirm this from the chips. The company was known to hand out casino chips as promotional materials at various gaming shows.

[Daniel Wilson]

If I may offer an alternate explanation...

I believe the second deck reads "P Gow 2".  Pai gow poker is a fairly popular casino game, particularly among Asian players.  Casino decks, particularly for games where the players actually handle the cards themselves, are frequently changed so as to prevent marking and other forms of cheating.  When a deck is retired from play, it is sorted to ensure all cards are still present, then replaced in the box.  The box is labeled with the time and date the deck was used in play, what game it was used for, and signed off by the boss in charge of the pit.  The decks are often sold off in casino gift shops, though the cards are marked so they can't be brought back into play (typically by clipping corners or drilling a hole through the deck).

I'm afraid your signatures are only those of casino employees.

[Don Boyer]

If I may offer an alternate explanation...

I believe the second deck reads "P Gow 2".  Pai gow poker is a fairly popular casino game, particularly among Asian players.  Casino decks, particularly for games where the players actually handle the cards themselves, are frequently changed so as to prevent marking and other forms of cheating.  When a deck is retired from play, it is sorted to ensure all cards are still present, then replaced in the box.  The box is labeled with the time and date the deck was used in play, what game it was used for, and signed off by the boss in charge of the pit.  The decks are often sold off in casino gift shops, though the cards are marked so they can't be brought back into play (typically by clipping corners or drilling a hole through the deck).

I'm afraid your signatures are only those of casino employees.

I might agree with that - in fact, I'm very inclined to agree with that - but one detail is off.  Casino-used decks are usually named and are unique to that casino while these decks appear to be "Bumblebee" standard issue.

I'm going to guess that they were indeed table-used, but at a trade show rather than on a casino's gaming floor.  It makes more sense, especially considering they bear markings of a chip-marking company that frequents such shows.  They're not so much autographs as they are listings of the deck's statistics which got recorded just like on casino decks - date, dealer, etc.  They probably had a few tables going in order to demonstrate their products in a real-world situation.

This especially makes sense when you factor in that Bumblebees are traditionally cut, just like pretty much every casino deck out there these days.  I think USPC might have even been using them as sample decks for potential casino customers at the time; these days they use a standard deck box for off-the-shelf Bees and the standard Diamond Back, no Stingers, Bumblebees, etc.  Bill Schulman gave me a handful of them a few years ago as a thank you for doing him a favor.

The dates make a lot of sense as well - paper poker-sized decks were still common at poker tables in the early-mid '90s.  Most have shifted to plastic and bridge-sized by now.

[adioking]

I might agree with that - in fact, I'm very inclined to agree with that - but one detail is off.  Casino-used decks are usually named and are unique to that casino while these decks appear to be "Bumblebee" standard issue.

This is precisely what threw me off and why I came to you guys for help. I think that we are all in agreement however, that these decks of cards are simply only a tiny piece of history on how casinos used to run their games. As great as that is, I suppose these decks are worthless 

Thanks for all the help of course. I'm not sure what I am going to do with these decks as I'm definitely running out of room. I have decks of cards from over 100 different casinos, most closed. If you guys are seeking anything, I have plenty to sell!

Thanks,
Dan

[Don Boyer]

I might agree with that - in fact, I'm very inclined to agree with that - but one detail is off.  Casino-used decks are usually named and are unique to that casino while these decks appear to be "Bumblebee" standard issue.

This is precisely what threw me off and why I came to you guys for help. I think that we are all in agreement however, that these decks of cards are simply only a tiny piece of history on how casinos used to run their games. As great as that is, I suppose these decks are worthless 

Thanks for all the help of course. I'm not sure what I am going to do with these decks as I'm definitely running out of room. I have decks of cards from over 100 different casinos, most closed. If you guys are seeking anything, I have plenty to sell!

Thanks,
Dan

I certainly wouldn't call them worthless - there's plenty of people who love collecting casino decks (and "Bumblebee" pattern Bees).  If you're interested in selling them, check out the Pasteboard Bazaar and Aces and Eights (but read the rules first - there are prerequisites before you can post a new topic).  Aces is for vintage and antique decks while the Bazaar is for modern decks.

[Card Player]

PGI or PGII could simply mean "private game" 1 & 2.

Most likely its pai gow (PG). Only pai gow poker uses cards, pai gow on its own does not. According to casino acronyms pai gow poker is (PGP). Both pai gow poker and pai gow are played openly in major casinos. A casino could have shorten the acronym to PG for the card specific version of the game.

[Don Boyer]

PGI or PGII could simply mean "private game" 1 & 2.

Most likely its pai gow (PG). Only pai gow poker uses cards, pai gow on its own does not. According to casino acronyms pai gow poker is (PGP). Both pai gow poker and pai gow are played openly in major casinos. A casino could have shorten the acronym to PG for the card specific version of the game.

Except that in this case, we're reasonably certain these decks WEREN'T used in a casino, but were more likely used in a trade show demonstration.  In the end, we may never know exactly what meant what in the markings, but only that the decks were marked in a similar fashion to how decks in a casino would be after use.  A typical Bee casino deck - with an actual casino brand or logo on it - would not only have a window in the back of the tuck box but also a place for filling in tracking information by the casino staff about who used the deck, when it was used, etc.  These are just Bumblebees - they have the window but not the writing area and no casino logo, though they are traditionally cut.  I've never heard of a casino using playing cards on the gaming floor that are identical to ones that could have been purchased from a card shop somewhere else in town - I think it's actually against gaming regulations in Nevada if not elsewhere as well.

Bit of trivia: to the Chinese, tiles (such as mah-jongg) and cards (such as poker or bridge) have the exact same name and are often thought of interchangeably.

[Card Player]

PGI or PGII could simply mean "private game" 1 & 2.

Most likely its pai gow (PG). Only pai gow poker uses cards, pai gow on its own does not. According to casino acronyms pai gow poker is (PGP). Both pai gow poker and pai gow are played openly in major casinos. A casino could have shorten the acronym to PG for the card specific version of the game.

Except that in this case, we're reasonably certain these decks WEREN'T used in a casino, but were more likely used in a trade show demonstration.  In the end, we may never know exactly what meant what in the markings, but only that the decks were marked in a similar fashion to how decks in a casino would be after use.  A typical Bee casino deck - with an actual casino brand or logo on it - would not only have a window in the back of the tuck box but also a place for filling in tracking information by the casino staff about who used the deck, when it was used, etc.  These are just Bumblebees - they have the window but not the writing area and no casino logo, though they are traditionally cut.  I've never heard of a casino using playing cards on the gaming floor that are identical to ones that could have been purchased from a card shop somewhere else in town - I think it's actually against gaming regulations in Nevada if not elsewhere as well.

Bit of trivia: to the Chinese, tiles (such as mah-jongg) and cards (such as poker or bridge) have the exact same name and are often thought of interchangeably.

There are some very good underground poker rooms in cities I will not mention. Cards are held to some of the same marking standards as casinos. Most of these games hire former and/or current casino employees (dealers, cocktail waitresses, etc.). Locations range from high security apartments, to storage facilities.

[Don Boyer]

There are some very good underground poker rooms in cities I will not mention. Cards are held to some of the same marking standards as casinos. Most of these games hire former and/or current casino employees (dealers, cocktail waitresses, etc.). Locations range from high security apartments, to storage facilities.

Considering that the decks were acquired with some casino chips, I'd theorize that if they weren't from a trade show, they could have come from such a game held in a private room in a given casino hotel.  That would make some sense as well.  Casinos treat their chips like cash and you are permitted to take them off the floor if you bought or won them.  An underground game could easily use the real casino chips as a more convenient form of table currency.

I'm told most players at the WSOP don't go because they think they'll win the main event - they go to fleece (or get fleeced by) the losers knocked out in the early rounds through private side games.  It's not hard to imagine a setup like you described taking place right in someone's hotel room.