Need Help! Aristocrat, Steamboat, National Card Co.

[CardConjurer]

Hello everyone. I was hoping some of you could provide me with some information on a few items in my collection. I am actually looking to sell all of these items and I want to make sure I am able to provide accurate information with them. I don't currently have access to my copy of Hochman.

There are three items:

1. Aristocrat Back No. 8 - I tried selling this deck about a year ago on eBay, but the buyer backed out because I incorrectly named the date. The deck was produced by pre-USPC RPC, it does not include the USPC date code. I know the tax stamp is from the late 50's/early 60's, and is cancelled by the USPC. Can someone shed some light on this deck?




2. Steamboat Deck. There is no remaining tax stamp, though the L in the date code puts it at either 1908 or 1929. Obviously I would think 1929 right away, but the color of the back design and the fact that the faces appear to have stamped colors in lieu of printed colors, makes me think it could be earlier. Any thoughts?




3. National Playing Card Co. Box. My best guess would put this box in the late 1800's. Any thoughts? I bought this at an estate sale about a week ago.



Larger photos can be viewed at the below link:
https://sites.google.com/site/cardconjurer/questions

Thanks in advance for all the info, it is much appreciated.

[Don Boyer]

The first one may be easily explained.  Russell Card Co. in Milltown, NY operated only from 1912-1928, being acquired by USPC in '29.  Much as with the modern Bee and Tally Ho decks, the Russell name was kept in use for many years later.

https://sites.google.com/site/cardconjurer/article/dating/manufacturers#RPC

It doesn't explain the lack of an Ace of Spades code, but not all USPC decks have the codes.  Modern Congress decks usually have pre-printed faces done in bulk, then the faces are run off usually at another time, so because the printing of the face and back can occur in different years, USPC doesn't encode the Aces of Spades on them.

On the 999 Steamboats, the L code isn't just '08 or '29.  It could also be '49, '69, '89 or 2009.  2009 is rather unlikely, but the brand was regularly manufactured into the early 2000s, with at least two reprintings since then, both easily distinguished from the original models.  The best cues to the deck's age you might have there is the Joker as well as the colors and pattern of the back.  I could be wrong, but that Steamboat joker was not the first joker type the brand used.  They've had a number of different designs, including a few that weren't very politically-correct these days.

The last one can be easily explained.  Looking at the same manufacturer list I used for the first deck, I can see that the National Card Co. had offices in both Indianapolis and New York, but it remained independent for only a very short time, from 1886 to 1894, after which time they were merged into USPC.  That box likely was made in that time span.

[52plusjoker]

I would think the Steamboat deck is from the 1929 period. The box is around 1890-1896 period.

[CardConjurer]

The first one may be easily explained.  Russell Card Co. in Milltown, NY operated only from 1912-1928, being acquired by USPC in '29.  Much as with the modern Bee and Tally Ho decks, the Russell name was kept in use for many years later.

https://sites.google.com/site/cardconjurer/article/dating/manufacturers#RPC

It doesn't explain the lack of an Ace of Spades code, but not all USPC decks have the codes.  Modern Congress decks usually have pre-printed faces done in bulk, then the faces are run off usually at another time, so because the printing of the face and back can occur in different years, USPC doesn't encode the Aces of Spades on them.

On the 999 Steamboats, the L code isn't just '08 or '29.  It could also be '49, '69, '89 or 2009.  2009 is rather unlikely, but the brand was regularly manufactured into the early 2000s, with at least two reprintings since then, both easily distinguished from the original models.  The best cues to the deck's age you might have there is the Joker as well as the colors and pattern of the back.  I could be wrong, but that Steamboat joker was not the first joker type the brand used.  They've had a number of different designs, including a few that weren't very politically-correct these days.

The last one can be easily explained.  Looking at the same manufacturer list I used for the first deck, I can see that the National Card Co. had offices in both Indianapolis and New York, but it remained independent for only a very short time, from 1886 to 1894, after which time they were merged into USPC.  That box likely was made in that time span.

Thanks Don. That website you linked is actually my website lol.

In reference to #1, the Ace of Spades is coded with the same type of 5 digit code as many of my other pre-USPC Russell decks. This is why the rather late tax stamp confuses me. I would have pegged this deck for a couple decades earlier than the stamp implies. Obvliously there is a chance it got stuck in a warehouse somewhere for a while before being sold, but this is not a simple explanation. I was hoping someone could shed some light on what period the Back No. 8 was produced in? What period was the Russell 5 digit code used in? Did it continue to be used on certain decks for a decade or more after acquisition by the USPC?

In reference to #2, yes I know that the L code was used in many other dates. I have, however narrowed it down to 1908 or 1929 based on context clues. I assume it is 1929, but was hoping someone might be able to tell me more about this color back design and the dates it was in print.

As far as #3, I had assumed it was made in the same years as the National Card Co. existed, towards the end of the 1800's. My one question is whether the name National Card Co. was used by the USPC for many years later with the Duplicate Whist brand. We know, obviously, that National Card Co. was used for over a century after the USPC merged just based on the Aladdin Brands. Just want to be sure this box is a pre-USPC National Card Co. piece.

[CardConjurer]

I would think the Steamboat deck is from the 1929 period. The box is around 1890-1896 period.

Thank you Tom. How common are these two items? Any thoughts on the Aristocrat deck?

[Don Boyer]

Silly me - showing you stuff on your own site!

As far as #3, I had assumed it was made in the same years as the National Card Co. existed, towards the end of the 1800's. My one question is whether the name National Card Co. was used by the USPC for many years later with the Duplicate Whist brand. We know, obviously, that National Card Co. was used for over a century after the USPC merged just based on the Aladdin Brands. Just want to be sure this box is a pre-USPC National Card Co. piece.

It's not likely that this National Card Co. that created the wooden brick box is the same company that made the Aladdin brand.  There was a recent reprinting of an Aladdin back, the Dome back, that dated back to the beginning of the Aladdin brand - 1880.  This predates the existence of the National Card Co. that made your box by a few years.

[52plusjoker]

The National box is original to the National Card Co - either before or not long after 1894. The Steamboat is hard to say - the back is common and used for a long time. No sign of a tax stamp - that would help. I lean towards the latest date.

[CardConjurer]

Silly me - showing you stuff on your own site!

As far as #3, I had assumed it was made in the same years as the National Card Co. existed, towards the end of the 1800's. My one question is whether the name National Card Co. was used by the USPC for many years later with the Duplicate Whist brand. We know, obviously, that National Card Co. was used for over a century after the USPC merged just based on the Aladdin Brands. Just want to be sure this box is a pre-USPC National Card Co. piece.

It's not likely that this National Card Co. that created the wooden brick box is the same company that made the Aladdin brand.  There was a recent reprinting of an Aladdin back, the Dome back, that dated back to the beginning of the Aladdin brand - 1880.  This predates the existence of the National Card Co. that made your box by a few years.

I was referring to the fact that the Aladdin Brand decks produced by the USPC were made with the "National Card Co." name still on the boxes and cards. See below.

[52plusjoker]

That box is DEFINITELY from the National Card Co. era.

[Don Boyer]

Silly me - showing you stuff on your own site!

As far as #3, I had assumed it was made in the same years as the National Card Co. existed, towards the end of the 1800's. My one question is whether the name National Card Co. was used by the USPC for many years later with the Duplicate Whist brand. We know, obviously, that National Card Co. was used for over a century after the USPC merged just based on the Aladdin Brands. Just want to be sure this box is a pre-USPC National Card Co. piece.

It's not likely that this National Card Co. that created the wooden brick box is the same company that made the Aladdin brand.  There was a recent reprinting of an Aladdin back, the Dome back, that dated back to the beginning of the Aladdin brand - 1880.  This predates the existence of the National Card Co. that made your box by a few years.

I was referring to the fact that the Aladdin Brand decks produced by the USPC were made with the "National Card Co." name still on the boxes and cards. See below.

I know that - I've seen pictures of the Aladdins labeled with National PCC on them.  I was theorizing that there may have been more than one company choosing the humble name of "National".  As the Aladdins were primarily for sale in Singapore, I considered that it might have been a name used by USPC in that country for selling their cards, much like how they used the name "International PCC" for selling cards in Canada, even manufacturing them there at one point, before eventually consolidating their printing operations in Cincinnati - I think they also dropped the International PCC company name, though not until a good number of years after the Canadian print shops were closed.

But as I stated, it's just a theory.  I can't see how National (the one that made your wood box) could have made Aladdins if the Aladdin brand predates the company's existence and it wasn't (as far as I know) purchased from another company or made by a company that "box National" bought out.  It's also not impossible to think that the 1880 design of the reprint wasn't actually from 1880, and could perhaps originate from the period of time in which "box National" operated, making them one and the same company.

Interesting - I just noticed that the box held "20 Packs of National Columbia Playing Cards and 20 Original Deals".  Larger than a modern brick box by far, even if you don't count the 20 original deals.  It just leaves the question "What is an 'original deal?'"

[52plusjoker]

You are adding too much mystery to this. Aladdin was a brand introduced in 1886 by National of Indianapolis which was bought in1893 by USPC. For years they continued the National brands as if it was a separate company. The National decks pictured were made by USPC for export. End of story.

The box contained enough decks to play Duplicate Whist with special cards that allowed the four Whist hands, each of 13 cards, be duplicated so they could be played by different tables. There is no doubt that the box was made to contain the 20 Columbia decks. We have a similar one with decks intact, the rules, etc.

[Don Boyer]

And there we have it...  Thanks, Tom.