The Lions Den Casino & Lounge (Madison/Ellusionist)

[sammyho888]

First free deck for Black Club members from Ellusionist.

[HolyJJ]

Mine is on its way... and until I saw this post, other than the name of the deck, I knew nothing about it other than the name of the deck, and that it's by Daniel Madison.

It's an interesting tuck box -- the black and gold combination nearly always looks cool. This one (like most Madison designs) is clearly ultra-minimal.

"Casino and Lounge"... interesting theme.

Most Madison decks have limited edition variants... and so let's see whether there's a limited edition version of the Lions Den deck also!

[Don Boyer]

HolyJJ, just noticed the new signature:

With this signature I'm following the example set by Fes: There is only ONE letter L in my display name. "Holly" is a female name... and I'm a 175lb, bearded guy who's into weightlifting. There's nothing feminine about me brother!

Actually it IS used as a boys' name as well!  (But males comprise only 0.01% of all children named Holly)...

So, no one's going to crack open their deck?  I guess we'll have to wait until I get mine!

[Fess]

haha, I love how tangents are such a consistent occurrence here. Really adds some personality to the boards.

The tuck looks pretty nice. It's hard for a black and gold tuck not to look nice though. I'm not a BC member myself so I'm one of the fellas without one of these on the way. For me it's just not there in terms of value. I don't know if this is one of the Madison decks that I'll really like, or one of the Madison decks that I really won't. There's not really a fine line there, so I have to take a good look at the deck before I'm too interested. As it stands, I like the tuck, so I'd say I'm 33% interested.

As HolyJJ pointed out. There's a lot of LE versions of Madison decks. This kinda begins to rub me the wrong way. I'm not saying I don't like LE's, I do absolutely. Sometimes, it's good to just have a deck be a deck without any LE cousins lurking around the corner though. The track record for Madison LE's is getting pretty sizable. I'm starting to think people chase the LE more than they do the friggin deck. That's all find and good, but wasn't the last deck, Kings, released with two or three LE versions? (I think I have three versions of Kings, I'll have to check though were gratis decks for one of my purchases. I really didn't pay too much attention other than, "Oh that's nice." set them aside and went on to what I purchased.) That's a bit long in the tooth for me. I'm hoping if they do do an LE of this, and I think they absolutely will, they'll keep it to just one.

[Don Boyer]

haha, I love how tangents are such a consistent occurrence here. Really adds some personality to the boards.

The tuck looks pretty nice. It's hard for a black and gold tuck not to look nice though. I'm not a BC member myself so I'm one of the fellas without one of these on the way. For me it's just not there in terms of value. I don't know if this is one of the Madison decks that I'll really like, or one of the Madison decks that I really won't. There's not really a fine line there, so I have to take a good look at the deck before I'm too interested. As it stands, I like the tuck, so I'd say I'm 33% interested.

As HolyJJ pointed out. There's a lot of LE versions of Madison decks. This kinda begins to rub me the wrong way. I'm not saying I don't like LE's, I do absolutely. Sometimes, it's good to just have a deck be a deck without any LE cousins lurking around the corner though. The track record for Madison LE's is getting pretty sizable. I'm starting to think people chase the LE more than they do the friggin deck. That's all find and good, but wasn't the last deck, Kings, released with two or three LE versions? (I think I have three versions of Kings, I'll have to check though were gratis decks for one of my purchases. I really didn't pay too much attention other than, "Oh that's nice." set them aside and went on to what I purchased.) That's a bit long in the tooth for me. I'm hoping if they do do an LE of this, and I think they absolutely will, they'll keep it to just one.

I don't mind tangents, as long as the topic gets posted in there somewhere...I'm practically the King of Tangents!

I will be extremely disappointed if this deck has the Madison court faces on it.  I really never took to those - the lines in the added faces don't match up with the ones in the remaining parts of the original court design.  His faces are drawn in much thinner lines, making the faces look mismatched and just sort of pasted in place rather than appearing like an integral part of the design.  It's hard to get custom court faces like that done right - you're better off changing the clothing as well.

When the White LTDs came out with those faces, I was disappointed - the classic faces they'd been using were better, in my opinion.  It killed my interest in owning the deck, so perhaps that was a good thing, at least from the perspective of my wallet.

BTW: is it free knowledge that this is a Madison (or more precisely, Madison/McKinnon) deck design?

[Card Player]

I'm not a BC member anymore. I bought into the BC at the $110 promotion price more then a year ago. I totally forgot I was a BC member at one point and never received a renewal email. So, now I'm not. The free deck for every new release is a nice idea. At $147, it was not worth it. Especially since I don't know if I want the deck or not. If I do, I never buy just one. I'd end up losing in shipping for a second order. I might as well wait to see if I like something and just buy what I want.

I find this deck to be interesting. I have not been able to say that since dealers v2. I like the casino & lounge (clip joint) angle. I'll reserve judgement till I see more and buy what I want when or if they are released.

[HolyJJ]

‎Don, seeing as the 99.99% of all people with the name "Holly" are female, I think I'll say that the percentage is high enough (only just though!) for me to consider it a female name. 

Regarding Lions Den deck, it is indeed a Madison deck -- the order confirmation from Ellusionist does refer to the deck as "Lions Den by Daniel Madison".

There was a photo of the cards over at the other card forum, and I have to say, this deck sticks to Madison's preference for minimalistic design.

Although there is a very dark, repeating diamond design (a larger squarish type of diamond design, rather than the type you get on Bee decks)‎ in the background, it just has the Lions Den Casino and Lounge writing (exactly the same as on the tuckbox) on both halves of the deck in the usual casino style.

The deck also has white borders on both sides, but none across the top and bottom of the cards -- so kind of like the Madison Hustlers in that respect. However, these borders are thick, and there is no 1mm offset.

Whilst most will likely call it a lazy design, I think this deck does have a certain type of elegance to it -- probably would be the type of design that I'd expect for a deck in an expensive lounge or casino.
‎
People are likely to either love it or hate it.‎ Regarding any potential limited edition... other than a colour variation, I'm not quite sure what they can do with this one. Either way, I'd be interested to see!

[Fess]

Although there is a very dark, repeating diamond design (a larger squarish type of diamond design, rather than the type you get on Bee decks)‎ in the background, it just has the Lions Den Casino and Lounge writing (exactly the same as on the tuckbox) on both halves of the deck in the usual casino style.

The deck also has white borders on both sides, but none across the top and bottom of the cards -- so kind of like the Madison Hustlers in that respect. However, these borders are thick, and there is no 1mm offset.

I saw that, haha. Believe it or not, I thought that was an ad card! You're absolutely correct though, I just went and looked again. That's the card back! hmm, I don't know how I feel about this. By itself just it's onesie out there it doesn't work to well for me. Seriously thought it was an ad card, haha. Maybe fanned or a delt out I'd feel differently. I'll reserve judgement for the time being, a fan, multiple cards out. That has an impact. Love to know what you think when yours arrives.

[Card Player]

Although there is a very dark, repeating diamond design (a larger squarish type of diamond design, rather than the type you get on Bee decks)‎ in the background, it just has the Lions Den Casino and Lounge writing (exactly the same as on the tuckbox) on both halves of the deck in the usual casino style.

The deck also has white borders on both sides, but none across the top and bottom of the cards -- so kind of like the Madison Hustlers in that respect. However, these borders are thick, and there is no 1mm offset.

I saw that, haha. Believe it or not, I thought that was an ad card! You're absolutely correct though, I just went and looked again. That's the card back! hmm, I don't know how I feel about this. By itself just it's onesie out there it doesn't work to well for me. Seriously thought it was an ad card, haha. Maybe fanned or a delt out I'd feel differently. I'll reserve judgement for the time being, a fan, multiple cards out. That has an impact. Love to know what you think when yours arrives.

What happened to the lion? Did the lion lose toes on the way down? Lions paws have 4 toes, not 3. LMAO
OR are they actually demon scratches?

Commonly found on people who have been attacked by something supernatural. The reason the scratches from demons are always in three is because it is a mocking of the Trinity. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are the most important figures in the Christian faith and any demonic force will attempt to enrage the Trinity.

[PrincessTrouble]

Here are what the card backs look like.

[sprouts1115]

The Lions den. 

[Don Boyer]

The Lions den.

[scratch:target=head;state=confusion]
[timedelay=10s]
[stare=befuddled]
[/scratch]

Aside from quoting part of the deck's name and showing us a pretty picture, were you actually trying to say something?

[DarkDerp]

The Lions den.

[scratch:target=head;state=confusion]
[timedelay=10s]
[stare=befuddled]
[/scratch]

Aside from quoting part of the deck's name and showing us a pretty picture, were you actually trying to say something?

I believe he was demonstrating that lions have 4 claws not 3 like the thing that clawed the lions den deck.


http://danielmadison.co.uk/ARTICLE-Biography.html
Also It looks like Madison has updated his story. The Lions Den is apparently the name of the place he was caught cheating  and beaten up for being too awesome and totally badass.

[Fess]

I keep looking at these card backs and I can't help but feel like I'd like it a whole lot better if the text and strange pitchfork/scratches weren't on there. The pitchfork/claw whatever thing, looks kind of cool on the tuck. Just doesn't really translate well on the cards themselves for me. Good example of less is more, I think it would have a certain charm and stand out a bit more positively.

I don't think I can ever remember mistaking a card back for an Ad card before in my life. This one, I did.

[Justin O.]

I really like the tuck, enought that I started hunting for one for resale pretty much immediately once I saw it, but the cards backs have me hessitating, they aren't terribly attractive and they don't continue the elegance of the tuck at all...

[10ofclubs]

I'm glad I didn't renew my Black Club membership. I basically threw away 150 bucks last year because of it. If these are the kind of decks you get for being a member, I really don't think it is worth the money.

[HolyJJ]

Turns out that only 5000 of these decks were printed.

No idea whether there will be further printings of it, or whether it'll remain a limited edition.

Edit: the Black Club e-mail makes it appear that it will remain a limited edition deck. The deck will be sold for $10, with none of the usual discounts for purchases of 6 or more.

5000 is very low for an Ellusionist deck... and so when it does go on sale to the general public, I'll be surprised if it lasts longer than 48 hours.

[Don Boyer]

Turns out that only 5000 of these decks were printed.

No idea whether there will be further printings of it, or whether it'll remain a limited edition.

Edit: the Black Club e-mail makes it appear that it will remain a limited edition deck. The deck will be sold for $10, with none of the usual discounts for purchases of 6 or more.

5000 is very low for an Ellusionist deck... and so when it does go on sale to the general public, I'll be surprised if it lasts longer than 48 hours.

5,000 is more like "average-low" for Ellusionist.  Every rare deck they've ever printed has been in quantities of 5,000.

As far as lasting more than two days...  Red Artifice decks were the first rares these guys offered for sale, and only 3/5th of the print run at that.  They sold in about 16 hours, maybe less.  But these are NOT red Artifice decks, to be sure.  I can see them selling out eventually, but not in 48 hours.

Look at the less-than-excited reactions of the people here - the supply is short, but the demand's not terribly strong.  There will be those completists who MUST...HAVE..EVERY...ELLUSIONIST...DECK, but they're will be nothing like the response for the red Artifice.

Even speculators are less likely to want a piece of this - they'd be sinking cash into a deck that's not terribly popular, despite its rarity, and they'd be stuck holding these for months waiting for enough buyers to clean them out.  It wouldn't be worth tying up the money in this deck when there are better and more popular ones out there.

[HolyJJ]

^^ Don, of course you're correct about 5000 being the usual Ellusionist quantity for limited edition decks. For any other project (such as kickstarter projects) 5000 is a massive quantity... but I called it low relative to Ellusionist -- because it's a quantity that they can shift pretty fast.

The design may not be on par with the Red Artifice, Gold Arcane, or any other high-value limited-to-5000 types of decks, but it has something which the above-mentioned decks didn't have -- the Daniel Madison name tag.

After all, the first printing of the pretty lame (and in my opinion, totally crap) Kings deck was 20,000... and that sold out fast. Even the second run also sold out. 

Madison stuff, sells. Whether it has great design or not, it sells. Even when Madison one day takes minimalist design to the Nth degree by selling double blank cards in a blank white tuck box (with only a small Madison logo in white font), that'll probably sell also.

I'm guessing that you've read the sales page for the deck, and so you know the back story behind it. I think they've done a pretty good job with how they've presented it -- a deck which has personal significance to DM.

Limited Edition, Daniel Madison, Ellusionist, and the backstory... I think that's enough to get the die hard Ellusionist fans and Madison fans to snap up this deck pretty fast. That's why despite the less-than-positive response to the deck from this forum, I do think the deck will meet Ellusionist and Madison's goal -- to sell out, and I think it'll do that pretty fast.

[Don Boyer]

You may well be right, HolyJJ.  But I think we might be nearing the point of Madison saturation, especially when factoring in how many "Ellusionist-rare" decks he's put his name on.

Let's see now...  In no particular order...

Madison Dealers v1 (borderless), green
Madison Dealers v1 (borderless), red (rare)
Madison Dealers v2 (bordered), black
Madison Dealers v2 (bordered), red
Madison Gamblers (gaff deck for black Rounders and green Dealers v1)
Madison Rounders, white
Madison Rounders, brown
Madison Rounders, black (regular)
Madison Rounders, black (autographed [rare])
Madison Rounders, red (rare)
Madison Kings, white
Madison Kings, inverted (rare)
Madison Mini Rounders, black
Madison Hustlers, orange
Madison Hustlers, purple
The Lions Den
LTD, white (technically not a Madison deck, but it does have the Madison courts [rare])
The Gaff System (Artifice gaff cards co-developed by Madison)

EIGHTEEN decks, of which five are rare and not purchasable.  I know of no one else with such a pasteboard legacy!  And that doesn't include his first deck, the one he did with Theory11...

[HolyJJ]

Yeah, one would expect there to be a point where interest declines... but DM's following only ever seems to pick up, rather than lessen.

The list you've provided covers nearly all decks -- the only ones I know of that are missing from the list of DM-Ellusionist collaborations are Blue Rounders and the Private Reserve Rounders. (Although Ellusionist didn't sell any, the Ellusionist logo does appear at the bottom of the tuckbox.)

Furthermore, the White edition Kings and Madison Revolvers are already known to either be in the works or ready for release!

The list is going to keep on growing brother...

[Card Player]

Yeah, one would expect there to be a point where interest declines... but DM's following only ever seems to pick up, rather than lessen.

It's picking up but not with age. I've read comments of those who still have anything good to say about his playing cards. They're mostly kids.

I have trouble articulating my thoughts regarding DM anymore. Disappointing. I have nothing else I care to add.

[Don Boyer]

Yeah, one would expect there to be a point where interest declines... but DM's following only ever seems to pick up, rather than lessen.

The list you've provided covers nearly all decks -- the only ones I know of that are missing from the list of DM-Ellusionist collaborations are Blue Rounders and the Private Reserve Rounders. (Although Ellusionist didn't sell any, the Ellusionist logo does appear at the bottom of the tuckbox.)

Furthermore, the White edition Kings and Madison Revolvers are already known to either be in the works or ready for release!

The list is going to keep on growing brother...

The list was as complete as I could get using the data presently available on the E website.  I had a hunch I'd miss out on at least one deck.  So, we're looking at about twenty decks and counting in the, what, two or so years he's been working with Ellusionist?  I know of few people who are that prolific in the playing card production world.

Just spotted ANOTHER missing deck.  Black Kings, in addition to inverted and white.  And I forget - what's the deck with the gold-boxed Kings?

It's picking up but not with age. I've read comments of those who still have anything good to say about his playing cards. They're mostly kids.

I have trouble articulating my thoughts regarding DM anymore. Disappointing. I have nothing else I care to add.

I believe you on that.  It's rather funny when you think about it - a card hustler teaching cheating moves to children not even old enough to gamble!  But yeah, Daniel's got fanboys like a lot of other people in this business and they seem to be keeping him and Ellusionist afloat.

I think the Madison decks single-handedly got me fed up with the practice of creating courts with faces of people the artist or producer know in real life.  The drawings on his cards occasionally don't match the line size or the style and the heads are occasionally out of proportion, seeming on the too-large side.  I was so disappointed with the white LTD deck because of that - it had great USPC-standard faces and Artifice-style indices using standard pips.

[HudsonDesign]

One thing though, they are good for value growth.

I don't think I paid for many of the DM decks I have (although I did for others) and some of his earlier reading material and methods have some golden info or interesting variations through it.  I think my bottom deal was pretty good.  But after some of DMs stuff written and film its probably one of my strongest suits.  I don't use his method entirely but some things I had not considered or learned from other literature was changed, altered in my mind, or at the very least seen differently, in a better light.  Now I have this wierd hybrid that works for me and some of his stuff helped with that.

But I think I have them all, in multiple copies, from over time.  And value to trade or sell to get other decks is far better than other copies of much better decks I have.  Currently both Private Reserve and Blue Rounders are easy going over $100 on ebay. (and I don't even know if these are genuine http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Bicycle-Ellusionist-Madison-Rounders-BLUE-RARE-US-Playing-Cards-Magic-NEW-/171340256163?pt=AU_Card_Games&hash=item27e4acd3a3 This guy always seems to have too many copies of pretty rare stuff to be real?  Along with asian ties I think they are knock offs anyway).

I have a small stack of white monarchs, but one blue Rounders, or private reserve will get me better trade or $$$ value to help my collection grow.  Unfortunately I cant see Lions den doing that.  So I have not even grabbed the free one because shipping to Aus is a killer and they have nothing else I want currently.

[Card Player]

@  HudsonDesign:

I have nothing bad to say about DM as an author. I don't think anyone questions the contributions he has made to the growth of his craft. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing the same effort in his playing card releases. I know that has something to do with Ellusionist.

The Kings concept was a good one in my opinion but DM was already earning a reputation for producing more decks then anyone at that time. Had DM stopped after Dealers V2 and waited for Kings a year later, we all might have a different opinion on the subject. But its never enough. The decks keep coming. One more uninspiring deck after the next. There used to be a time when I believed DM's playing cards were about function. I know now that's not the case. Its about money first, concept last.