Looking for tips regarding the feel of different decks

[sae2111]

Hello, all. I've been playing cards all my life (though, who hasn't, right?) but have only recently started taking an interest in the decks themselves. I'm a newbie in search of advice.

I had some free time tonight, so I sat down with a handful of decks and played around with them. The attached photo shows the decks in order of preference, feel-wise, with the Rounders being my favorite, the Onidas, my least favorite. (This is about feel only. I hate to slight the Onidas. I love the way they look, but I don't like handling them.) I'm hoping some learned forum members could point me toward decks that are going to handle similarly to the decks at the top of my list. I'd also appreciate any observations about manufacturing, card stock, finish, etc. that may be relevant.

Happy Saturday, ladies and gents.



Seth

[Don Boyer]

Well, it certainly appears that you favor USPC-made decks with "Magic Finish" coating on embossed Bee Casino stock.  I think all of the first three share those properties in common.

The pick for #4 is very interesting.  The Nautical deck from the Blue Crown was manufactured by Expert PCC, but at a printing plant they tried using in Shanghai.  The only other deck made there you also appear to have, EPCC's own Global Titans at #8.  Many people here panned them as being inferior quality, but Bill Kalush over at Expert said he knows some prominent card people who prefer those decks over others they've tried.  It seems they required a longer breaking-in period, but few knew this and were reviewing them after having barely gotten them out of the box.  To the best of my knowledge, Expert has stopped using that plant and is presently printing only through their printer in Taipei.

Tally Ho is of no surprise in #5 - they're not "Magic Finish" but are considered a favorite of many cardists, though these days it's getting hard to tell them apart from slightly older Bicycle decks.  They used to have a unique card stock, then were switched to another unique card stock, and at present both stocks are no longer offered by USPC.

#6 - the Zen deck in black I'm a little surprised about.  It's the only Expert deck you have from Taipei and is fairly new.  Are they broken in yet?  Many people consider them superior to USPC - the stock and finish offer just enough glide without being overly slippery, and they fan pretty smoothly.

#7 - Kevin Reylek made this deck, selling it through the Blue Crown as well as his own website.  It shares a lot in common with the first three decks, but uses a thinner card stock, what USPC classifies as Bicycle.  I personally like the handling on them a lot.

#9, #10 & #11 - I've handled and liked the Republic No. 02 decks.  I've never handled the other two personally, but I've heard from others who've used those Air Cushion Aladdins that the Air Cushion version was terrible, very clumpy.  #9 & #10 are USPC-made.

Well, as far as advice - look for decks that are

* Made by USPC
* Made of Bee Casino stock
* Are embossed
* Are coated in "Magic Finish", also known as "Performance Coating" and sold under a few other names as well.  The initial "code name" while it was being tested was Performance Coating and the first deck it was tested on was Ellusionist's Gold Arcane deck (the box states it's "Air Cushion Finish").  E liked the name so much, they kept it for their own decks while USPC offered it as Magic Finish to others.  It's a bit of a misnomer, because the finish of the paper is how it feels to the touch, so Magic Finish isn't a finish at all; it's a coating.  The first deck made that actually stated "Magic Finish" on the tuckbox was Lance Miller's Bicycle Gargoyles, made in conjunction with Diavoli, a European deck producer.

[sae2111]

Don,

 Thanks for taking the time to reply. This is just what I was looking for.

 Regarding the Nautical Deck - It's certainly the odd man out of the decks on the left side of the table. It doesn't surprise me that it has some things in common with the Global Titans. For some reason, it just feels better to me. When I'm shuffling the Titans, I find they often crap out three fourths of the way through the deck. The Nauticals never seem to. The Nauticals also feel cleaner cut. They both feel a little thin, but it doesn't seem to be a liability with the Nauticals like it does with the GTs.

  The Zens - They're not fresh out of the box, but I could imagine them breaking in a little more. I've sat around shuffling them on several occasions, and have used them for 5-10 games, mostly cribbage and rummy. I think my biggest gripe is that they feel overly plastic. With the decks at the top of my list, I feel like I'm holding something organic. The Zens - quite the opposite. Maybe that will subside with use. I love the backs and will certainly keep using them. I'm looking forward to seeing how they change over time.

  I'm surprised to know that the White Aladdins are a thinner stock than the decks I most prefer. I would have guessed the opposite. The deck I have is definitely stiffer, which perhaps my hands equate to thicker.


 
  Thanks again. The information is much appreciated.



Seth

[Don Boyer]

Funny you should mention how those top decks feel more "organic" than "plastic"...

USPC relocated their operation from Cincinnati, Ohio to one of the city's suburbs, Erlanger, Kentucky in late summer of '09.  People noticed a dramatic difference between the handling of cards from Cincinnati and from Erlanger, with the Cincinnati decks being considered better.  It was long thought to be the result of a breaking-in period at the new plant., as it started during the time of the move and the card quality improved (at least on custom decks) by the end of 2010 or thereabouts.

I've recently learned that while they might have been adjusting to the new hardware, more likely the major culprit was a new Federal regulation that went into effect.  All playing card makers in the US had to use paper with a higher post-consumer recycled content as well as inks and coatings that contained no petroleum/plastic ingredients, causing a switch to the use of vegetable-based inks and starch-based coatings.  It was done not only for the reduction of paper waste and reduced toxicity of the chemicals used, but also as just another little measure to reduce consumption of oil and dependence on oil from foreign sources.

This was being advertised for a while on a few decks, most notably decks like the Bicycle Archangels from T11 and the Bicycle Eco Edition.  Eventually, it appears that USPC, rather than making a fuss about it, left it alone and doesn't really mention it, perhaps out of concern that some might consider the organic components inferior to the older ones which are no longer in use.

So today, all new USPC decks are "organic", sort of.  Expert and Legends are printing their cards outside of the US, and thus are not bound by US government-imposed manufacturing restrictions and can still use plastic ingredients that US companies can't.

[Fess]

Regarding the Nautical Deck - It's certainly the odd man out of the decks on the left side of the table. It doesn't surprise me that it has some things in common with the Global Titans. For some reason, it just feels better to me. When I'm shuffling the Titans, I find they often crap out three fourths of the way through the deck. The Nauticals never seem to. The Nauticals also feel cleaner cut. They both feel a little thin, but it doesn't seem to be a liability with the Nauticals like it does with the GTs.

You're not alone there, I agree with you. I feel the difference between Nauticals and Global Titans too. I actually think the ink may have something to do with it on the GT's. I also agree the Nauticals feel cleaner cut. Global Titans are nice to look at but I find I don't pull them out to play with often at all and I think I'm down to one of each of them. I'm almost ashamed to say, I've let the kids use them for war and slap jack decks but they're being enjoyed.

[Don Boyer]

I'm almost ashamed to say, I've let the kids use them for war and slap jack decks but they're being enjoyed.

There's no law that demands every custom deck be hermetically sealed in plastic and stored under conditions of controlled light, temperature and humidity...  Playing cards are PLAYING cards - meant to be played with.  I open at least one of nearly every deck I get, regardless of the rarity.

[HankMan]

There's no law that demands every custom deck be hermetically sealed in plastic and stored under conditions of controlled light, temperature and humidity...  Playing cards are PLAYING cards - meant to be played with.  I open at least one of nearly every deck I get, regardless of the rarity.

I really want to do that too, but I just can't get myself opening every deck of cards..

about the feel of the cards, I do have some preference too
being on the top is black gatorbacks and silver split spades (I really want to open red and blue split spades but maybe not now)
but there is another deck that I found myself drawn to, and that is the JAQK cellar playing cards. They are softer and thinner than any other cards I used.
I do found them easier to do some of the flourishes, although the design is not so much of a killer.

then these are just on my top list (From what I have)
-Gatorbacks & Split Spades
-JAQK
-Monarch Blue
-Bicycle Archangel (another great deck IMO)
-Aristocrat (only recently tried this and I really love the feel)
-Bicycle Guardian (it is not the first edition, really wish I can get the one manufactured in Ohio)
-Unbranded Silver Certificate
-Black Tiger Red Pips & Tally Ho Viper Fan Back (I Found this on par)
-Bicycle Master Shadow
-Bicycle Silver Steampunk

However after stating all that... I dont really know which will be the same as what you have... since we have a different collections..
However if I can only relate it to the tally ho circle back.. and I feel that all the cards I stated have better feel (*That is my preference though)

[Don Boyer]

I really want to do that too, but I just can't get myself opening every deck of cards..

about the feel of the cards, I do have some preference too
being on the top is black gatorbacks and silver split spades (I really want to open red and blue split spades but maybe not now)

You might be disappointed if you did.  The silver ones had Magic Finish.  The other SSL decks were made before it was being offered by USPC.  I love the feel, but it's not the same as the silver.

-Bicycle Archangel (another great deck IMO)
-Aristocrat (only recently tried this and I really love the feel)
-Bicycle Guardian (it is not the first edition, really wish I can get the one manufactured in Ohio)

Agreed on the Archangels.  It's a little strange, that back, but it's a good deck overall.
Aristos are very high on my list of favorites - perfect for poker, I believe.
The current-issue Guardians are better than the Ohio, in my opinion.  There were three versions total: T11 v1, USPC and T11 v2.  T11 v2 is superior and comes with a double backer.  No point in getting the USPC for use - same price as T11, no gaff card - just the instructions to a lame magic trick.  (Have you found the hidden one-way marks yet?) 

-Black Tiger Red Pips & Tally Ho Viper Fan Back (I Found this on par)

Have you spotted the variant decks that are out of print?  Black Tigers come in a box with no red markings on the front - it's an "all-white" version with no red pips.  The TH Vipers came in a Fan Back that had red for the red pips instead of being all-silver.  I managed to get a THV Fan back stripper deck but bent the corner of one of the cards!  I'm still scratching my head over why E doesn't make more strippers - they do appear to still be making Svengali, Rising Card, Invisible, but no strippers.

Another very good deck, in my opinion - Bicycle Gargoyles.  Lance Miller's first deck design (second version - the first was plastic with standard faces) and the first deck ever labeled to have Magic Finish.  I love the handling on them and the stock is supple, comparable to the Aristocrats but perhaps a tad less stiff.  They're not as easy to find these days - been out of print a long time.

Sae2111: I use a very simple rule of thumb for cards that I'm planning to use a LOT - like the cards I'm carrying around on me day-to-day.  As a magician, I'm often carrying a deck or two that's gimmicked, but not obviously so, such as strippers or marked decks.  But more importantly, I'm always seeking to carry a deck that's not just still available, but not limited to just a single printing - something that's being regularly made, often from either T11 or E.

Little known secret: T11 reprints some of their older decks, but doesn't advertise the fact nor do they sell it through their own shop.  It's tougher to tell with some, but we know for certain that the black Bee Stingers and the Propaganda deck were made at least twice.  The original issue is from Cincinnati while the reprints are from Erlanger, clearly marked on the box.  Having said that, I have no idea of how many extra they've made or if they'll continue to reprint them.

[HankMan]

The current-issue Guardians are better than the Ohio, in my opinion.  There were three versions total: T11 v1, USPC and T11 v2.  T11 v2 is superior and comes with a double backer.  No point in getting the USPC for use - same price as T11, no gaff card - just the instructions to a lame magic trick.  (Have you found the hidden one-way marks yet?) 

Have you spotted the variant decks that are out of print?  Black Tigers come in a box with no red markings on the front - it's an "all-white" version with no red pips.  The TH Vipers came in a Fan Back that had red for the red pips instead of being all-silver.  I managed to get a THV Fan back stripper deck but bent the corner of one of the cards!  I'm still scratching my head over why E doesn't make more strippers - they do appear to still be making Svengali, Rising Card, Invisible, but no strippers.

Another very good deck, in my opinion - Bicycle Gargoyles.  Lance Miller's first deck design (second version - the first was plastic with standard faces) and the first deck ever labeled to have Magic Finish.  I love the handling on them and the stock is supple, comparable to the Aristocrats but perhaps a tad less stiff.  They're not as easy to find these days.

Wow I just found it after you mentioned it 
I would never realised that lol... Not in a million years unless someone tells me. Thank you 
Hmm then what is the hype with getting the Ohio prints? I means some people says that the print quality from Ohio is superior then the current one.
If you say the current guardian is better, how about the others... Like the classic tally ho? Is it true that the Ohio print tally ho is better?

As for the THV fan back I got the one with all black pips... I always thought that the THV circle back has the red pips.. But I didn't confirm it myself as I am still trying to get the circle back.
With the stripper deck I am able to make it myself, although not as neat as the one produced by E or D&D... It still work fine... Never try it on custom cards though, only on stock bicycle or tally ho.

Gargoyles... I never heard of it.. Might look for it.. Do you know how much it worth now?
For me the aristos fan best and also easier to spring.. Knowing the gargoyles is tad less stiff, it really makes me want to try it out.. 

[HankMan]

Hi Don, do you think this seller is selling the gargoyle deck you mentioned?

http://www.cards4magic.co.uk/Mobile/MBSCProduct.asp?pdtid=14013256

[Don Boyer]

Wow I just found it after you mentioned it 
I would never realised that lol... Not in a million years unless someone tells me. Thank you 
Hmm then what is the hype with getting the Ohio prints? I means some people says that the print quality from Ohio is superior then the current one.
If you say the current guardian is better, how about the others... Like the classic tally ho? Is it true that the Ohio print tally ho is better?

As for the THV fan back I got the one with all black pips... I always thought that the THV circle back has the red pips.. But I didn't confirm it myself as I am still trying to get the circle back.
With the stripper deck I am able to make it myself, although not as neat as the one produced by E or D&D... It still work fine... Never try it on custom cards though, only on stock bicycle or tally ho.

Gargoyles... I never heard of it.. Might look for it.. Do you know how much it worth now?
For me the aristos fan best and also easier to spring.. Knowing the gargoyles is tad less stiff, it really makes me want to try it out.. 

The hype with Ohio prints - it's a bit of a long story, but basically, when USPC move the print works to Erlanger, Kentucky, people started to think that the Ohio decks were superior.  It was long thought that it was due to a shakedown period at the new plant, working with the new machines, but there was a contributing factor - government regulations required all US card printers to stop using plastic/petroleum inks and coatings, switching to ones made from vegetable extracts and starch.

Today, most of what Erlanger produces is superior to that of Cincinnati.  A major exception would be the "Bicycle Classic" Rider Backs - they lowered the quality a bit to reduce costs of making their best-selling deck.  They're still better than most of the commonly-available competition, but not as good as they used to be.

You're right about the Vipers - I mixed up the two decks.  Fan backs are all-silver, Cirlcle backs (out of print) were red and silver.

Hi Don, do you think this seller is selling the gargoyle deck you mentioned?

http://www.cards4magic.co.uk/Mobile/MBSCProduct.asp?pdtid=14013256

They are.  The plastic ones were made for a print expo and are very rare collectibles.  We did an article on them in last month's CARD CULTURE magazine - it's a monthly PDF magazine for the members of 52 Plus Joker, a card collectors' club that covers everything from the earliest decks all the way to the latest KS projects.  Head over to http://52plusjoker.org for more information if you're interested in joining.