Draco Magi Playing cards - Sneak Peak

[Fess]

I don't know anything firm at this point but a deck of playing cards is currently being developed of Kerem Beyit's beautiful Dragon artwork. It will likely come to use under the moniker of Draco Magi but may not. Here's a preview.

[Don Boyer]

Um...interesting?

The back is one-way and the indices are poker chips.  It's a wait-and-see for me...  Nice art, though.

[Magasaki]

Considering the minor changes for a 2 way back it would probably be worth doing at little detriment to the design. Also confused about the indices as Don said.

[Fess]

The indices area doesn't make sense to me either, neither does the black background with grey hearts. I'm hoping they'll figure it out and all that fun stuff the dragon art is definitely worthy of a solid deck in my opinion.

[Collector]

IMHO:

- the dragon is interesting;
- the framework of the face is interesting;
- the background and "indices" of the face - ;
- the central circle and the framework of the back design - nice;
- space between the central circle and the framework of the back design -

[CherryNukaCola]

If the "problems" could be fixed, this could be pretty amazing.

[Fess]

If the "problems" could be fixed, this could be pretty amazing.

I agree, it could be amazing. I won't hold my breath though.

Edit: I should rephrase that. They make board games, so it's difficult for them to understand what's important to card guys. Really it could go either way. I think any way it goes the cards will be cool just because of the great dragons on them if nothing else. It's been my experience when I see Board game folks decide to make playing cards, they end up being exactly what you'd expect from board game folks. I'm thinking right now if for a stand out, yea pulling a blank on that. That's not to say, this could be the one deck that becomes the stand out. I really hope it is.

[robertburke]

If the "problems" could be fixed, this could be pretty amazing.

I agree, it could be amazing. I won't hold my breath though.

Edit: I should rephrase that. They make board games, so it's difficult for them to understand what's important to card guys. Really it could go either way. I think any way it goes the cards will be cool just because of the great dragons on them if nothing else. It's been my experience when I see Board game folks decide to make playing cards, they end up being exactly what you'd expect from board game folks. I'm thinking right now if for a stand out, yea pulling a blank on that. That's not to say, this could be the one deck that becomes the stand out. I really hope it is.

Thank you Fes. I have invited my partner and graphic designer to this string. I know a lot of time has been invested so far, but some changes have been made on feedback already.

Here are some updated images. Better? Still a ways off?

http://www.robertburkegames.com/2015/02/work-on-new-dragon-deck-of-cards.html
I could not figure out how to embed the images.

[ecNate]

Here are some updated images. Better? Still a ways off?

http://www.robertburkegames.com/2015/02/work-on-new-dragon-deck-of-cards.html
I could not figure out how to embed the images.

Images embedded below for you.  I'll be watching this one.  I like the art and the differences are interesting, but they style isn't one I usually go for since steampunk and fantasy themes aren't usually my style unless it's super dark and evil looking.  The initial dragon image though was appealing.

[Fess]

Hello Robert welcome to the forum.

That is better but still a ways off. There's a few things that could be improved. The indices should be pushed out on the face cards a bit, they're not quite in prime real estate territory yet. As they are if someone spreads the deck out they're not going to see most of the indices or even half without adjusting how they lay down the spread. Also as is, fanning the cards looks like it will hide the indices almost entirely if not entirely. That makes it difficult to use. A little different sizing, smaller could make the indices more useful and allow you to push them out a touch. The three of hearts card for example, the value and suit indicators can be pushed out to where the heart begins on the left of the card. That's a pretty dramatic difference when using the deck, and offers more area of focus for the art on the card. The boarder on the playing card manufacturer's template is more of a suggested area. You can cross it, just not too too far. Can get away with indices placement similar to this.

(Sorry about butchering the image, new comp only has Paint atm.)


I don't understand the poker chip in the first, disc in the second image of the KoH.  Is that a developed notion to dress up the face of the courts? I feel like it's competing with Kerem's dragon for importance on the card face while at the same time creating an indices placement issue through the rest of the deck. The indicator is all that's needed in my opinion.

I don't know who you're looking at for printing these, United states playing card company, Legends Playing card company, Expert playing card company, Make playing cards, or not going with one of the playing cards manufacturers at all and choosing a board game manufacturer like AdMagic but... if it's USPCC, absolutely one of the best in the world, the ghosted in hearts of on the face cards will be entering a full bleed deck. They're very close to the edge and that makes USPCC a little uncomfortable. The real thing that makes this full bleed at the moment are the placement of the dragons and the lower portion being visible so close to the bottom of the card. It doesn't seem like a major thing but this can actually become a tell of the cards. I'd suggest trying a slightly different placement of the dragon, moving the dragons up just a bit to make more use of the card face area itself, then making sure the bottom of the card face and all edges are completely blacked out. That would be easier on your printer as well. (Side note, really hope you guys choose a playing card manufacturer to make your playing cards. They do a great job at the one thing they do, making playing cards.)

There are two frames on the courts. A mirror or portal that shows up on the number cards, framing the center of the card and the additional frame running behind and over the Dragon. They're both nice looking, but not at the same time. An either or approach would leave the focus with the Dragons. Also, using a frame to show the difference in value isn't in my opinion a good option to go with on an Art deck. It's like saying this piece of art is more important than the other, not really showing an increase in value. The indices do that just fine on their own while not competing with the art work.

On to the card back I'm very happy to see your taking steps to keep this from being a one way back. That makes it so much more useful. The center of the card now has the points all crossing, maybe two would be better? So that the points meet one another. It's looking messy and unintentional at the moment.


Also, the card back is absolutely one way. It has more marks than what you're noticing in the center element, which also has more haha. I'll point out a few that I see right off, there may be more I don't see that well unfortunately. These are just the ones that stood out as I gave it a quick look over. I hope that helps a little bit, some little fixables there. I'm a big fan of your games and I adore Kerem's gorgeous dragons.

[Don Boyer]

Good eye, Fes.  I caught a few one way marks that you missed - check out the dot patterns in the center of the left and right edges and you'll spot a huge difference.

Robert, if you're interested, I consult for playing card designers, helping them with the finer details of making a lovely piece of art into a functional deck.  My biggest clients to date have been Gambler's Warehouse and Uusi.  My rates aren't just reasonable - they're damn near cheap.

[robertburke]

We made more changes based on the feedback here. Thoughts on this card face?
Also, USPCC will be printing these with the Bicycle brand.

[Fess]

Absolutely moving in the right direction, not quite there yet though. All my thoughts are on how busy the indices are and the borders. It's good we know you plan on USPCC as your printer. I have to tell you that as it is, they can not handle your current design and you would have to make many changes for them to print this. More on that a bit further on.

The Indices placement is good, this is to say the K and the heart pip. The frame location is not good. It's also over complicated near the indices. I know it's hard to reign it in seeing this as one of the focal points of the card and prime real estate to go crazy. While it is prime real estate on the card face, it's almost always never a  good idea to go crazy there. The main reason is the rank and suit indicators are extremely important to the cards use. More goings on happening right where the indices are do the opposite of what we'd expect, it doesn't enhance but detracts from the area and the cards usability.

Example: Playing a game of Hold em people are plopped down around a table but the cards are located center of the table, players on either side of the sides of the table need to look in and easily recognize what cards are in play. The more visual enhancement there is going on in that general area the harder it is to play this simplest of the simple poker games.

Another example: A Magician wants the participant and audience members to easily see and recognize what the rank and suit of the card being shown is in a short period of time. The Ta Da! moment relies on this. If the audience is too busy trying to figure out what the card is, the Ta Da becomes an Ah ha! which isn't really what they're going for.

Of course our minds think, "sure they can see the indices they're clear." More often than not this isn't the case though. It's human nature to overlook the obvious when presented with all kinds of happens in the same general area. So even though we're looking for the rank and suit indicators, we don't see them. Similar to typos, they're clear as day but the words around the them create enough goings on to cause our brains to turn off and just overlook the things as if they're not there.

I suggest the opposing corner for elaborate goings on. If they must be included, that's a much better alternative as it won't congest the indices. Easier on our eyes and better for card use even though it's not in  what we want to think of as prime real restate on the card face. It is actually prime real estate for those kinds of enhancements.

USPCC needs a certain amount of margin between the card art and the edge of the card. This is due to their process, volume of production, and in some small part laziness. Mostly due to large production, while we often hear of the minimum run 2,500 decks +/- 20%, USPCC doesn't have a whole lot of down time. They're pretty much constantly printing one deck or another regardless of print run. They're pretty impressive really in the sheer volume of different decks they're pounding out lately. Anyway, back to point. The Borders of the card face are just too thin for USPCC. I'll post some reworked corners so you can see a more realistic border size, as well as an alternative idea to your current frame that will help minimize the space taken by the frame without losing it's appeal.

Lastly, your current pips are pointing in a 3d direction and they're currently taking away from the card. They don't look good. I think you'll find them very difficult to make look good without losing appeal. I'm sure this is an early version of the pips still, may want to consider going in a different direction for them. It's very hard to get a 3d effect like that in the pips to not come off being amaturish. From what I've noticed over time they tend to be wasted hours because people don't end up going with them anyway. Just too much variation between shapes of club, diamond and heart for that professional polish that needs to happen. Kerem's beautiful dragons all have an organic flow, maybe go in that direction? Or possibly Iron and Stone.

(EDIT: Again sorry for butchering the images. Still using Paint haha, been busy.)

[Don Boyer]

While I agree on certain points you're making, Fes, bear one thing in mind - this deck is very unlikely to see a lot of use at either a poker table or on a magician's felt pad.  I learned a long time ago that it's a bad idea to perform with expensive, rare collectible decks!  They only end up getting destroyed.  (Just ask the people who sold me extra copies of Karnival Dose Redux!)  I might use something like an Artifice or an Arcane, but only because they're cheaper and mass-produced.

I think the design is coming along nicely.  It's better than it was, that's for certain.

[creatorpwned]

Good afternoon, my name is Andre and I have been working with Robert on the design for this playing card deck. As some of you may have guessed, this is indeed the first time I've designed playing cards. It's been a very educational process, and quite a bit of fun to be honest. Before I go on, I'd like to thank everyone who has offered feedback on this project, as it's been really helpful in the process. Based on the feedback, we've chosen to take a less complicated direction. By reducing how much space and attention the frame gets, we hope to give the art the majority of the focus, while making the indices easier to read from any position at the table. I've attached some samples of the new design in both black and white borders, as well as the corrected card back. As always, feedback is welcome and encouraged. If you have a preference between white and black borders, please let us know. Thanks again!

[Fess]

Hello Andre, welcome to the forum.

My personal preference on the borders is leaning to the white. Reason being it makes the dragons pop. The Undead dragons spines show up vividly and the colors appear brighter. Celestial dragon's right whisker is clear and stands out better. The Clockwork dragon seems to benefit a bit more from the back border to my eye and is the only exception. Of course the Bloodhorn dragon kills it regardless of border, it's fierce eye instantly draws attention then the gaze wanders out from there for the "Damn, that's cool." reaction from those massive chomps haha. (Bloodhorn is possibly my favorite of all the dragons.) The ends of it's horns stand out better on the white for me though. I also think the Rainbow Dragon will look insanely good with a white border.

That's just my opinion, but the border color really doesn't impact me one way or the other. It will impact your usable colors for the dark suit pips though. Black boarder makes it difficult to use a dark color for the black suits. White and black are both good. The only benefit to a white boarder is the card will last a little longer. The edges of the cards over time will become a little worn with use and it's more noticeable on a black border deck than on a white border deck. That's just the nature of ink on paper and use. I'd recommend going with whichever one you and Robert like better, providing you have clear and visible indices for the black suits. There's always stretch goals for another deck with a different border and a few enhancements like metallic inks and what not, right?

Curious what you guys will choose to do for the black suits, you've gone with this brassy color for the red suits. I like the chunky indices, rank indicator looks nice and bold and the pip stands out well. Not sure if that little twig hanging off left of the heart will leave you enough room to clear the clubs pip, but I think that's an easy fix. Will the frame match the color of the dark suits as it's doing for the red suits? Solitaire is quite possibly the most played game ever, and it's difficult to impossible to play with only one suit color across the entire deck. Tried a couple times, didn't work out. Each time I ended up in sitting in an airport playing black jack against myself instead haha.

My quick look over didn't show any one way markings on the card back this time. Only marks left by zooming in, I use magnification often as I don't see very well. There are a couple of design choices that I still think take away from the card back. They clash with each other upsetting the flow in my opinion. Those are, the filigree and fan vs the strange bars on the four dragon silhouettes. As well as the bubbles and bars combination behind the dragon silhouettes with bars. They all kind of, hate each other and are clashing. The center element of the card back also has problems going on in there. Went a head and did up some quick marks to point them out. The black dots under the red mark, they're not centered in that ring. The yellow mark indicates a trouble spot too, it may be a better option to go with "Draco Magi" text there, over and under in some stylized but readable font. That ring will need fixing before it can see print as it is. The blue marks indicate other areas that will be trouble spots. They can come out really bad, it may be a good idea to just save the grief and rework before hand. One last thing you may want to keep in mind, gradient sounds like a great idea in theory in execution it can be a nightmare. That's why it's not commonly seen on card backs, I struggle to think of a deck that features it to such an extent.

Coming together very well! 

[Don Boyer]

Fes raises some good points.

The extraneous background decorations on the card back are doing you no favors, making it appear needlessly busy and taking away from the dragon silhouettes.  I'd ditch all that junk and draw some detail lines on the dragons, allowing you to see them in better detail (and no longer as silhouettes).  If you feel that leaves too much empty space along the vertical axis, take the four largest dragons and spread their wings just a little farther.  It will not only look nicer but it will be reminiscent of classic card designs, which had no gradients, were monochrome much like yours and showed great attention to detail.  (Imagine what it must have been like to create a radially-symmetrical card back WITHOUT the use of a computer, just using old-school tools...)

There are differing schools of though regarding a "white" deck versus a "black" deck.  Black decks look gorgeous, attracting collectors like moths to flame, but as stated, they show visible wear much faster.  All cards develop chips at the edges - but when the paper is white, black chips stand out like sore thumbs while white ones aren't really noticed without close scrutiny.  I'd say pick one for the primary goal and use the other as your stretch goal.  Go for black first, as an art deck like this will have strong collector appeal, then rope in the players when the white deck is offered at the stretch goal mark.

[robertburke]

I love the decorative elements and the gradiants. I think it's a good sign that the only "issues" remaining are purely subjective matters of taste. I will leave the final choices up to Andre though. He's done a great job, and I'm very thankful for all the work he's put in.
I think we will Kickstart the black deck and add the white deck as an option as a stretch goal.

[Collector]

Nice improvements of the faces. Still not a fan of backs.