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Theft is always theft!

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Theft is always theft!
« on: June 14, 2015, 01:28:48 PM »
 

Rob Wright

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To me this may be the most important post I've made. This is not just about one picture being stolen. this is about every card designer who has had there decks counterfeited, every magician who's tricks have been exposed on You Tube, and whether your a professional photographer or just a fan that takes pictures. If someone uses your photo to make money, and doesn't have your permission. That's stealing.

Tony is one of the best at photographing cards, and he should be compensated.

As fans, collectors, magicians, and artist. How do we stop this from happening? How about our wallets!

Quote
Tony Sparkz


So about a week ago The Blue Crown used one of my images on their RARE sale without, at the very least, asking if they could. This is a constant issue with my images and I'm getting a little tired of it. So I sent Alex Pandrea an email with an invoice for one time use of my image. It read as follows:

 "Hello Mr. Pandrea,

 On 06/07/2015 your company The Blue Crown launched a sales promotion which included an image of the Branded Obsidian Playing cards. The image was used without permission or compensation.
 The original image was photographed by myself and is located on my website at www.sparkzcollector.com as well as my Social Media outlets such as Facebook.
 This image is protected under the US Code: Title 17 – COPYRIGHT LAW Link: http://copyright.gov/title17/circ92.pdf

 Attached is a statement for the one time use of this image to be paid in full upon receipt.

 Thank you,"



Quote
Tony Sparkz

Alex Pandrea and The Blue Crown Part Two, the response. There were a million ways Mr. Pandrea could have responded to my email that could have ended with me saying "Please take the proper actions next time" but his opinion on using others material, along with the emails entirety itself, made me decide to draw a bit of a line in the sand. Once again, I encourage people to share this with others.


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Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2015, 02:37:07 PM »
 

chas0039

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That response stinks!
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2015, 05:46:54 PM »
 

Cardfool

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Quite an unprofessional response in my opinion...I don't think that Sparkz was being condescending, but definitely feel Alex was...definitely leaves a impression and I will need to re-consider supporting BC in the future
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2015, 05:53:00 PM »
 

HolyJJ

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Does anybody with any legal background (or legal knowledge on the matter) know whether Pandrea has any high ground on this issue?

If a person sends a response like the one he did, it usually means one of two things (1) they've spoken to their lawyer and got it confirmed that they're 100% safe, or (2) they're overconfident, and they think that even if their is some sort of violation, nobody will take the time and effort to escelate the matter.

With this signature I'm following the example set by Fes: There is only ONE letter L in my display name. "Holly" is a female name... and I'm a bearded guy who's into weightlifting. There's nothing feminine about me brother!
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2015, 06:22:31 PM »
 

JacksonRobinson

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Does anybody with any legal background (or legal knowledge on the matter) know whether Pandrea has any high ground on this issue?

If a person sends a response like the one he did, it usually means one of two things (1) they've spoken to their lawyer and got it confirmed that they're 100% safe, or (2) they're overconfident, and they think that even if their is some sort of violation, nobody will take the time and effort to escelate the matter.

It makes no difference what legal advice Pandrea has received, what he did is copywrite infringement plain and simple. Even if he kept Sparkz watermark on it. Do you think getty or corvus would mind someone running an add with a watermarked image?
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Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2015, 06:26:11 PM »
 

Anthony

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Thanks for sharing Rob and your support, the most meaningless part of this situation is money, this isn't about money really, this is about 1. The Law, and 2. Common courtesy to an artist and his work, regardless of the type of artist you are. I've given permission to so many to use my images for just a photo credit, but you need to step up and ask first. This was kind of the straw that broke the camels back, and now it's time to take some kind of action.
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2015, 02:57:55 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I'm going to add a phone call to Alex to my list of things to do this morning after I get home from work.  Perhaps I can help clear this up to everyone's satisfaction.  Cross your fingers for me, folks - Alex can be a difficult man to get a hold of.
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Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2015, 03:01:32 AM »
 

JacksonRobinson

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LOL, it will get cleared up a whole lot faster when he receives his letter.
Jackson Robinson
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Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2015, 08:38:26 AM »
 

Brian M

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I was the editor in chief of a big photography web site for a few years, and this is a fairly common situation.  It was not unusual for people posting photographs on our site to have them appropriated by other websites.

Many people either do not understand that photographs are copyrighted, or what that means; or they willfully choose to ignore these laws, thinking that the chances of there being any consequences are most likely remote. It makes no difference whether you call a photograph a "fan photo", and think you are doing the photographer a favor by giving him free advertising -- you simply cannot legally use a photograph which you do not own without the permission of the photographer.   Any more than you can just appropriate deck designs from artists without paying them for permission.

There is no doubt that what bluecrown.com did was a copyright violation, and if they were sued, they would not have a proverbial leg to stand on. The obnoxious response from Alex doesn't make it any more illegal, but it also makes plain that he is far more clueless or negilgent about his legal obligations than anybody doing business ought to be.  I would not trust such a person in anything more than a routine business transaction.  Since Blue Crown just appropriated the photogaph in this case, you have to wonder how many of the photographs on their website were appropriated without permission, justified in Alex's mind by the curious notion that he is giving "free advertising"  to "fans".

All that said, unfortunately it is rather difficult for photographers whose copyrights have been violated to do much about it in most cases.   In the United States, unless the copyright is registered, the courts will award you only "actual damages", as opposed to the far more substantial "statutory damages".   It is is doubtful that the photographer registered the copyright in this case, so he would have to prove the extent to which he was actually damaged.  Actual damages in this case would  probably equate to the fee that the copyright holder could reasonably have charged for the use of the photograph. This would almost certainly not be sufficient to cover attorney's fees in a copyright suit.   Even though it would be an easy case for an attorney, the fees would still be more than the damages recovered.    Many sharp operators count on this when they appropriate photographs which they don't own.

Incidentally, at this point, it seems that the photo has been taken down.  If it weren't, the photographer could use the Digital Millennium Copyright Act to force it to be taken down.

Since Alex's response was arrogant and obnoxious, probably the best course is the one suggested by others in this thread: to stop doing business with Blue Crown.

« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 09:04:40 AM by Brian M »
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2015, 09:45:20 AM »
 

Anthony

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Thanks for all the info Brian,

I'm curious though, with the sale that The Blue Crown used my image in being a 24 hour sale only sent to subscribed members, it went down because of the sale and not because of my actions. So once again it falls on the image owner to police and go the extreme extra mile, when TBC can play the odds and walk away clean. My invoice to Mr. Pandrea is in line with what registration would have cost, so it's not like I'm trying to extort large sums from him. Governing laws aside and with the laws of common sense and respect from one person to another prevailing, Mr. Pandrea could have replied in so many different ways that would have not only avoided all of this, but we could have come to an agreement. It's important that people not just brush things like this aside, it's not about the money, it's about common courtesy and respect.
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2015, 10:55:52 AM »
 

Brian M

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Anthony, I agree and sympathize with you.   How somebody in the business of publishing the expressive creations of other people can be so ignorant and/or cavalier on the subject of copyrights is hard to understand.   How he could be so tone-deaf in responding when challenged is even harder to understand.   A simple apology, or even a small payment, would surely have been preferable to the loss of goodwill that Blue Crown will likely now experience.  Playing card collecting is a very small world. 
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2015, 12:57:48 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Just for informational purposes, I wasn't able to reach Alex Pandrea.  I left him a voicemail but no reply yet.  I do know another person who tried contacting him as well with the same intent I had, but to no avail.
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Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2015, 09:16:02 AM »
 

Anthony

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In regards to this situation, Alex and I have come to an agreement over the issue at hand
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2015, 09:39:21 AM »
 

Rob Wright

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That's good to hear Tony. Sometimes the social media does good!
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Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2015, 05:29:38 PM »
 

Card Player

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Tony

First, I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on television. :))

http://www.socialmediaexaminer.com/copyright-fair-use-and-how-it-works-for-online-images/

At the end of the day, your not a stock photographer. If my source is correct, this issue falls under the "Fair Use Doctrine". It allows for limited and reasonable uses as long as the use does not interfere with owners’ rights or impede their right to do with the work as they wish. However, I'm not sure if this applies to commercial use of the photo?

I think we had this discussion once before on the "post your collection thread". We were discussing the use of watermarks on photos, one they are ugly and two It does not stop people from using them. What your doing by adding your copyright/name on the bottom right looks fine and your getting credit for your work. Stock photographers use watermarks because they are selling those images and if stolen impedes on their right to do with the work as they wish.

What I don't understand is that Alex is known in the industry for taking his own photos. Why would Alex want or need to use someone else's photos? If it were me, I'm not using anything on a website I own that was not shot by me or licence purchased by me, let alone give anyone credit for something I can do myself.

Consider it a compliment, Alex used your photo.  He should not have. Not because he's not allowed but because its in poor taste as a producer.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 06:37:21 PM by Card Player »
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2015, 06:38:23 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Tony

First, I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on television. :))

http://www.socialmediaexaminer.com/copyright-fair-use-and-how-it-works-for-online-images/

At the end of the day, your not a stock photographer. If my source is correct, this issue falls under the "Fair Use Doctrine". It allows for limited and reasonable uses as long as the use does not interfere with owners’ rights or impede their right to do with the work as they wish. Since your not selling stock photography and your copyright is on the work, Alex can use it. Alex is not selling your photo as his own.

I think we had this discussion once before on post your collection. Most don't use big watermarks on photos because, one they are ugly and two It does not stop people from using them. What your doing by adding your copyright/name on the bottom right looks fine and your getting credit for your work. Stock photographers use big watermarks because they are selling those images and if stolen impedes on their right to do with the work as they wish.

What I don't understand is that Alex is known in the industry for taking his own photos. Why would Alex want or need to use someone else's photos? If it were me, I'm not using anything on a website I own that was not shot by me or licence purchased by me, let alone give anyone credit for something I can do myself.

Consider it a compliment, Alex used your photo.  He should not have. Not because he's not allowed but because its in poor taste as a producer.

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a little while...

17 U.S.C. § 107
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

the nature of the copyrighted work;

the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.


The very article you quoted has a series of questions to ask, in order to determine if one's use of an image falls under fair use.

#2: Why are you using the image? If it is “…for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research…” you’re on the right track.

If you’re just using the image to pretty up a post, then think twice; or better yet, get permission or buy a stock image.


I don't think an advertisement for products for sale would qualify as a fair use case for appropriating the photo.

Another question from the same article:

#4: How much of the image are you using? If you’re using a thumbnail and linking to the original location, there is greater likelihood of finding fair use than if you just post the original image. If you’re doing a post about facial features and are just using a portion of the face from an image, you stand a better chance of arguing fair use than if you used the entire image.

I got a fair look at the page - it looked to me like the entire photo, right down to the watermark, was in use in the Blue Crown's advertisement.

Fair use will protect the user in certain limited cases - but using the full image for the purposes of making money by placing it in an advertisement, even if it is a photo of one of your own products, really wouldn't qualify, as far as I can tell.  There's no greater public good that's being served, it's not "news" in the sense of a report on a current event, scholarship and research were the furthest things from the company owner's mind when he used the photo, etc.  It's not even like it was being appropriated for inclusion into an artistic work of some kind, like audio samples used in a song or the image of a Campbell's Soup can in an Andy Warhol painting.

Even in such cases, there are limits as to how far one can go - for example, when one adds an audio sample from another work to a song, you're limited to a certain number of seconds for it to be considered fair use - past that, and you owe the copyright holder some cash.  Just ask the band Pop Will Eat Itself - they went past the length defined when they used a sample from the opening sequence of the TV show, "The Twilight Zone," and it cost them a pretty penny or two.

Anyway, at this point, this entire thing is a moot point.  Tony came to an agreement with Alex - the details of which haven't been revealed, but it's in place nonetheless.  Fair use doctrine is an important part of our culture, allowing people to use a work for a specific purpose in their own generation, while it still retains some degree of relevance, instead of having to wait several generations for copyright to expire.  But its use is really quite limited, especially when it comes to commercial use of a copyrighted work - and a copyright need not be registered to be enforceable, though it certainly helps.  Copyright attaches to a work the moment it is created, not the moment some government clerk stamps "Rec'd" on it.
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Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2015, 06:42:25 PM »
 

Card Player

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You quoted me before my edit. :))
« Last Edit: Today at 06:37:21 PM by Card Player »

I updated, I was not sure it applies to commercial use.

Anyone that's read Tony here, knows Tony is all about not having his photos taken without permission. Of all the people to take a photo from. Lol

Personally, I think we all have to figure out why we are doing what we are doing. Is it worth the time and effort knowing this can happen. Tony knows who Alex is and it was posted on TBC website with Tony's copyright. In many cases it's not so cut and dry. Alex could have cropped the copyright off but he didn't.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 08:42:34 PM by Card Player »
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2015, 08:25:28 PM »
 

Anthony

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For the record Alex did pay the invoice sent to him and did apologize, I'm not going to publish the last conversation we had because there is no point to it now. But I really want to stress that this was not about money, Alex just happen to be the proverbial "Straw" that broke the Camels back. That being said, all of this could have gone a completely different way from the 1st response. I've since added a new page to my site explaining "Image Usage" for those who aren't sure.

Common courtesy goes a long way. 
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2015, 08:48:31 PM »
 

Card Player

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I'm glad to hear there was a mutual agreement. Was it worth making Alex pay though? Why do you do what you do? Is it for your love of playing cards, to get people to read your blog or both? It's a two way street. Alex gives you some exposure outside of the forums and you pull out your copyright card and want compensation. I would of simply explained to Alex (in private) no permissions were given but still allowed Alex to use it with a promise that Alex asks next time. Now you've built a business relationship. I doubt Alex would ever consider throwing you a bone in the future.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 09:29:18 PM by Card Player »
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2015, 09:28:05 PM »
 

chas0039

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Some principles are worth standing up for.
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2015, 09:30:08 PM »
 

Card Player

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Some principles are worth standing up for.

Well said! I can't disagree.
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2015, 09:39:02 PM »
 

HankMan

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Anthony, is this applies to imaged used on eBay?

I mean I found this on eBay and it has your watermark on the photo.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sharps-Playing-Cards-Green-RARE-/231588392353?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35ebbe6da1

Back for more
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2015, 10:02:52 PM »
 

Card Player

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Anthony, is this applies to imaged used on eBay?

I mean I found this on eBay and it has your watermark on the photo.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sharps-Playing-Cards-Green-RARE-/231588392353?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35ebbe6da1

Anthony can contact eBay with the listing #. eBay usually complies within 3 days. I doubt eBay will provide personal info on the seller, they just end the listing early.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 10:10:29 PM by Card Player »
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2015, 10:16:01 PM »
 

Anthony

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Card Player I do what I do for myself and for other card fans, to give them a better look at a deck before they buy it, and give "MY" opinion of what I thought of the deck. I don't consider myself a reviewer, I don't go out of my way to "Build" a following, I don't care how many people visit my site, it's there for those who do. But, as with anything, there are those who want to bend the rules when they can, and some feel the rules don't apply to them. I've said on numerous occasions...........Just ask, and I'm sure we'll figure something out.

You mentioned it's a two way street, yes it is, but not on my end only. Alex could have just as easily taken an alternate "Street", but he chose not to. What's done is done, I believe I acted professionally in my communication and the direction of this situation wasn't dictated by me. With that being said, everyone is going to have their own opinion of how this was handled and that's perfectly OK, but I would always urge to base your opinions on facts and not assumptions. But I'm glad that since this has happened more people are contacting me and "asking" if they can use an image, or have been "Bartered" for my services and I don't think that's too much to ask, and I'm positive those who have dealt with me are more than happy with the arrangements offered. You should have pride in what you do and stand up for what you believe is right.

@Hank.....eBay is the same thing, and I can't begin to tell you how many messages I send out to pull down my images. I don't know when people started thinking that as long as the watermark is there it's OK. The simple rule to my images is not to use them for monetary gain without permission or some sort of arrangement. The sad part is that it falls on the artist to police his work, and nobody can be everywhere. Just because you get away with it doesn't make it right.
 

Re: Theft is always theft!
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2015, 12:21:22 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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You quoted me before my edit. :))
« Last Edit: Today at 06:37:21 PM by Card Player »

I updated, I was not sure it applies to commercial use.

Anyone that's read Tony here, knows Tony is all about not having his photos taken without permission. Of all the people to take a photo from. Lol

Personally, I think we all have to figure out why we are doing what we are doing. Is it worth the time and effort knowing this can happen. Tony knows who Alex is and it was posted on TBC website with Tony's copyright. In many cases it's not so cut and dry. Alex could have cropped the copyright off but he didn't.

You mean cropping the watermark, which contains a copyright notice.  You can no more crop the copyright than you can breathe with no lungs.

Cut and dried is actually easier to prove than you think, even when a photo's been cropped.  The pixels in the image that correspond to the original will be identical in the copy, unless some modification took place.  The metadata is another place that some people are sloppy about editing.  Most smartphones and some dSLRs will leave a GPS location/time stamp in the metadata, as well as including info about the camera hardware and its settings.  It's easy enough to identify the owner in cases where the metadata wasn't edited.

I'm glad to hear there was a mutual agreement. Was it worth making Alex pay though? Why do you do what you do? Is it for your love of playing cards, to get people to read your blog or both? It's a two way street. Alex gives you some exposure outside of the forums and you pull out your copyright card and want compensation. I would of simply explained to Alex (in private) no permissions were given but still allowed Alex to use it with a promise that Alex asks next time. Now you've built a business relationship. I doubt Alex would ever consider throwing you a bone in the future.

So, if I shoot you walking on the street and include you in my motion picture without obtaining a model release from you, I can simply say, "oh, but I gave you exposure."?  No.  What if such exposure isn't desired?  What if I used that footage of you in a porn film?  What if I used it in a commercially-sold religious video and you don't believe in that religion, or worse, its beliefs are antithetical to your own?

As owner of the copyright, Anthony has the right to determine how and in what context his work can or can't be used for any purpose not covered by Fair Use Doctrine.

The image was used briefly in a message about a limited-time offer - it's unlikely that the image owned by Tony would have been used again, nor is there any guarantee that Alex would have "thrown him a bone."  BTW: as far as your livelihood goes, do you prefer getting fair and just legal compensation for your work, or do you prefer that you occasionally get thrown a bone?

Card Player I do what I do for myself and for other card fans, to give them a better look at a deck before they buy it, and give "MY" opinion of what I thought of the deck. I don't consider myself a reviewer, I don't go out of my way to "Build" a following, I don't care how many people visit my site, it's there for those who do. But, as with anything, there are those who want to bend the rules when they can, and some feel the rules don't apply to them. I've said on numerous occasions...........Just ask, and I'm sure we'll figure something out.

You mentioned it's a two way street, yes it is, but not on my end only. Alex could have just as easily taken an alternate "Street", but he chose not to. What's done is done, I believe I acted professionally in my communication and the direction of this situation wasn't dictated by me. With that being said, everyone is going to have their own opinion of how this was handled and that's perfectly OK, but I would always urge to base your opinions on facts and not assumptions. But I'm glad that since this has happened more people are contacting me and "asking" if they can use an image, or have been "Bartered" for my services and I don't think that's too much to ask, and I'm positive those who have dealt with me are more than happy with the arrangements offered. You should have pride in what you do and stand up for what you believe is right.

@Hank.....eBay is the same thing, and I can't begin to tell you how many messages I send out to pull down my images. I don't know when people started thinking that as long as the watermark is there it's OK. The simple rule to my images is not to use them for monetary gain without permission or some sort of arrangement. The sad part is that it falls on the artist to police his work, and nobody can be everywhere. Just because you get away with it doesn't make it right.

There's a business opportunity in there somewhere.  And it is possible to be "everywhere at once" through the use of the right software and hardware!  Companies do this all the time for celebrities - searching media for mentions of their clients, be they good or bad.  The digital age makes the job that much easier - but someone's still gotta do it (and get paid for it).
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 12:22:57 AM by Don Boyer »
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