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TeaTime [KS]

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TeaTime [KS]
« on: June 26, 2015, 04:27:33 AM »
 

madscienceatwork

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The Russian born Australian, Fyodor Krasniy has just launched a campaign to fund his deck. 

Do note that the prices are in AUD, so anyone in the US can take advantage of the currency exchange and get these decks a good price. 

Check it out herehttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006347430/teatime-silhouette-playing-cards

« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 05:03:49 AM by Don Boyer »
 

Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2015, 09:40:27 AM »
 

chas0039

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These rewards are a little confusing.   Why is "free shipping" a bonus for the early bird special?  They both look like they have "shipping worldwide".  The same for the Australian edition.

Is there a shipping charge?   Also, I cannot see who is doing the printing.   You expect a pretty fast print time.  Is four weeks realistic?

I wish you had done a completed project or two so I could have more confidence as these are awesome cards.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 09:40:58 AM by chas0039 »
 

Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2015, 09:49:06 AM »
 

HankMan

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It is mentioned that the printing company is MPC.
I don't think LPCC, EPCC and USPCC minimum run is as little as 500 decks.

I do agree 4 weeks seems to be a little unrealistic, especially if you are doing the fulfilling yourself. I heard it can be quite a nightmare, hope you are prepared for it.

 
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Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2015, 09:57:52 AM »
 

chas0039

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Thanks HankMan.  I missed MPC.  How is their quality?
 

Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2015, 10:12:35 AM »
 

Rob Wright

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Wow! that's some crazy pricing for a MPC deck. $15US shipped for an earlybird. About $22US for standard pricing. It's actually more expensive each when you get two. About $46US.

The design is nice enough, just not my style.

He says 3rd party fulfillment, so I assume MPC will be doing the fulfillment. 4-6 weeks does not seem too unrealistic if that is the case. That's probably what they are telling him. However.........how are they going to get all of those decks signed if that is the case?
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Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2015, 11:32:49 AM »
 

Justin O.

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Thanks HankMan.  I missed MPC.  How is their quality?

Sub par. Digital printed on stock that people go back and forth over the quality of. It's cheaper for a reason. makeplayingcards.com, in my opinion, is great for prototyping decks or personal projects, but I wouldn't use them if I wanted to put a quality project I could be proud of in someone else's hands.
Kickstarter completely revolutionized the way I waste money.

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Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2015, 11:49:08 AM »
 

chas0039

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Thanks Justin.  Helps me decide.
 

Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2015, 12:19:22 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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While MPC quality has been improving, its print work leaves a bit to be desired.  They invariably print darker than the original appears on-screen.

The design is great and original.  The title led me to think that it was yet another Wonderland deck, but no, it isn't.

The pricing is...a bit messed-up, and on the high side.

The printer...isn't worth what's being charged.

It's a shame he didn't opt for a better printer.  And if he thinks he can self-fulfill in four weeks after closing, that's just pipe dreaming.
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Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2015, 07:35:06 PM »
 

madscienceatwork

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Hello all,

Thank you for the support and feedback. 

This project being run by a pair of artist, is indubitably daunting, but we hope that our supporters will be satisfied with the final product.  This is our first time crowdfunding and is a learning experience.  However, we are nearly 40% of the way to our goal within 24 hours, so I believe that is a good sign.

Our delivery is estimated between July and September.  July being for digitial, August for MPC fulfilment, and September for signed work.

Wow! that's some crazy pricing for a MPC deck. $15US shipped for an earlybird. About $22US for standard pricing. It's actually more expensive each when you get two. About $46US.

MPC is doing the fulfilment for majority of the cards.  The estimated cost of printing with fulfilment isn't much lower than the early bird price.  Especially with our heavy Australian market.  A lot of the pricing has been set with an Australian market in mind. 

The ones that need to be signed will need to be sent to Australia first, which is also why they have a shipping charge.

That is also why "The Collector" is more expensive. 

Initially, we aim to print 500 decks, half of which will be rewarded through kickstarter.  The rest will be enough that we can resell and use to print the decks into the future.  That is why the pricing is about $20 AUD.  However, if we are funded well enough, we would like to increase the quality as mentioned in our stretch goal and possibly change to a new printer. 

I wish you had done a completed project or two so I could have more confidence as these are awesome cards.
I respect that, this is a learning experience for us but heck, we all have to start somewhere.  I hope to gain your trust in the future.

What printer would everyone recommend that offers fulfilment?

I will report back in within a few days to answer any other questions or address and other concerns.
 

Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2015, 11:02:31 PM »
 

Rob Wright

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Wow! that's some crazy pricing for a MPC deck. $15US shipped for an earlybird. About $22US for standard pricing. It's actually more expensive each when you get two. About $46US.
..........................Initially, we aim to print 500 decks, half of which will be rewarded through kickstarter.  The rest will be enough that we can resell and use to print the decks into the future.  That is why the pricing is about $20 AUD.  However, if we are funded well enough, we would like to increase the quality as mentioned in our stretch goal and possibly change to a new printer. 


..........What printer would everyone recommend that offers fulfilment?

Welcome to the forum madscienceatwork. What you said here, is one of the biggest problems I see happen on KS projects all of the time. Putting a high price on KS decks so that you have a bunch left over to sell later. This could have been priced to sell all/most of the decks. The other thing is you put an extra expense on yourself to do the signatures. Most people don't care about signatures. Especially from a first time project. I have nothing against people making a profit, but with a $3,600 goal, there is not a lot of room there. The margin you're trying to get seems a little high.

LPCC also does fulfillment as well

Good luck on your project.
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Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2015, 12:44:06 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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What printer would everyone recommend that offers fulfilment?

I will report back in within a few days to answer any other questions or address and other concerns.

The Legends Playing Card Company, as stated, offers fulfillment services.  Additionally, Expert PCC has been trying it as an experiment - you should check with them as well.  Legends does fulfillment from their HQ in Hong Kong, presumably, while Expert is doing fulfillment from the factory in Taipei, Taiwan - which, coincidentally, they share with Legends.  Expert's hoping to make shipping less expensive as well as to dramatically reduce shipping time by sending the decks straight from the factory to the backer by China Post.  If Bill Kalush at Expert succeeds, he could shave two to four weeks off the delivery time, depending on where your backers live.  Backers in Asia and Australia would have the fastest delivery times, in all likelihood.
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Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2015, 04:10:15 AM »
 

madscienceatwork

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Hello,

Thanks Don and Rob for the advice of LPCC.  We are definitely going to look into that.

I did want to clarify in regards to profits.  The idea of having half the decks to be resold seems logical to me.  That is money that we could invest into a new run of printing.  Our idea behind this kickstarter is to be self-sustained.

The artist has a large local and international following, signed items are an essential reward.  I do know now that I should have offered add-on decks or something similar at a lower price.  However that is part of the learning experience.

Again, I  really appreciate everyone's input.  We are about half way to our goal, so upgrading to a better printer seems more realistic as a stretch goal. 
 

Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2015, 06:50:57 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Hello,

Thanks Don and Rob for the advice of LPCC.  We are definitely going to look into that.

I did want to clarify in regards to profits.  The idea of having half the decks to be resold seems logical to me.  That is money that we could invest into a new run of printing.  Our idea behind this kickstarter is to be self-sustained.

The artist has a large local and international following, signed items are an essential reward.  I do know now that I should have offered add-on decks or something similar at a lower price.  However that is part of the learning experience.

Again, I  really appreciate everyone's input.  We are about half way to our goal, so upgrading to a better printer seems more realistic as a stretch goal.

Collectors are an odd bunch.  Believe it or not, in the minds of many collectors, a signature will actually REDUCE the value of the deck, unless you're talking about a signature from someone famous, like David Blaine, David Copperfield, etc.

It's also not uncommon for designers to hang on to some decks for later sale, but if the demand is high enough, they'll find they simply have to sell them, period - especially when the print run is limited up front to a specific number of decks and you're getting closer and closer to that number.  It's not the worst thing in the world to completely sell out the print run in the Kickstarter - it means you have enough cash to perhaps make the second run WITHOUT having to raise funds on KS!  In the playing card deck collectors' world, rarity tends to be king, and most such projects will state up front that they'll make X decks and no more, usually in a single print run, never to be remade.  If they do go back to that well, wanting to do the design again, they'll alter it in some manner, the most common manner being to release a new back color.
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Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2015, 11:46:58 AM »
 

Brian M

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As regards pricing, what the project costs is the producer's problem not the backers'. 

If the producer ends up with a price which is competitive with the pricing of comparable decks on Kickstarter, it will be of no concern to most backers how much profit the producer is making for himself (or not making for himself).

If the price is much lower than comparable decks, astute backers will be concerned that the producer hasn't done his homework, will eventually realize that he is going to lose money, and will abandon the project.   

If the price is significantly higher than comparable decks, then potential backers will take their money somewhere else.  There are plenty of Kickstarter decks, and most collectors are not so obsessive that they have to collect every deck. Their money will go further backing other decks.  The few collectors who are obsessive, and loaded with money, won't suffice to fund the project -- and anyway, even obsessive people can be aggravated  by an unreasonably high price.

So, my advice to this producer would be: set the pricing to be like the pricing of all the other successful Kickstarter projects.  If that means you can't do the project, then don't.  Probably you will be forced to take this advice in the end whether you want to or not, because the project won't fund if you don't.


« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 11:48:13 AM by Brian M »
 

Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2015, 12:55:41 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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As regards pricing, what the project costs is the producer's problem not the backers'. 

If the producer ends up with a price which is competitive with the pricing of comparable decks on Kickstarter, it will be of no concern to most backers how much profit the producer is making for himself (or not making for himself).

If the price is much lower than comparable decks, astute backers will be concerned that the producer hasn't done his homework, will eventually realize that he is going to lose money, and will abandon the project.   

If the price is significantly higher than comparable decks, then potential backers will take their money somewhere else.  There are plenty of Kickstarter decks, and most collectors are not so obsessive that they have to collect every deck. Their money will go further backing other decks.  The few collectors who are obsessive, and loaded with money, won't suffice to fund the project -- and anyway, even obsessive people can be aggravated  by an unreasonably high price.

So, my advice to this producer would be: set the pricing to be like the pricing of all the other successful Kickstarter projects.  If that means you can't do the project, then don't.  Probably you will be forced to take this advice in the end whether you want to or not, because the project won't fund if you don't.

But there's a flaw in this.  There are cases where a producer can indeed produce a deck for a much lower price.  When purchasing decks in larger amount, for example, the per-deck costs drop, allowing the producer to charge a lower price, perhaps even below the typical market price for a deck.  And what exactly would that typical market price be in the first place?  Different decks have different costs associated with their production because of things like the features of the deck itself or the costs of shipping (if they're still included, since now many projects don't include shipping).  There'd be no way to compare something like the NOC deck or the Silver edition of the 52 Plus Joker Club deck or the Stranger and Stranger Ultimate deck, if they were offered on Kickstarter.

While it sounds nice on the surface, the suggestion you gave oversimplifies the problem of deck pricing.
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Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2015, 08:17:16 PM »
 

madscienceatwork

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You have raised some interesting points in regards to collectors.

After this campaign is funded, Fyodor definitely would like to have limited run prints of this and another deck he is developing.  We will definitely keep this feedback in mind and produce future decks with the collector in mind.  Especially the advice of printers.  We are already exploring costing with the current kickstarter to see about adding a new stretch goal to change printers.

In regards to pricing based around the market.  We have developed the pricing do to our local market.  I understand that this is appealing to a worldwide crowd, but majority of support and the sale of the extra decks will be locally, or at least in Australia.  We will expand our targeted demographic into the future.

I would like to compare the pricing to a cost of beer.  In our kickstarter, the price of a collection of 54 pieces of artwork that has been developed by the artist for the past 8 years is roughly the same price of a 6 pack of decent beer.  The surplus decks will be sold in various shops and galleries for roughly the price of a case of cheap beer. 

If we have 250 decks leftover, the amount of money that we can get from that will be enough that we can reprint the decks without asking for help.  One goal we have is to not become dependent on crowd funding. 

Again, I really appreciate all the feedback, we have wanted to produce the best quality, best feeling, best handling decks.  Now that we know that their is a community with such passion about this medium I am certain we can develop something amazing with the more esteemed collector in mind, as opposed to the person who wants a really cool deck of cards. 

Do remember, this is our first time doing a project as large as this.  Your support and positive attitude can do wonders.
 

Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2015, 09:22:51 PM »
 

chas0039

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I am hardly that experienced with collecting cards nor with Kickstarter.  Many others here have years more than I.  However I can share with you my own experience. 

I took a look at the last 9 projects I chose to back and 3 are $9, 2 are at $10, 3 are $11-12, and only one is $15.  That project was with an experienced starter and it had a totally tricked out lenticular tuck box.  For me to go above $12, I need a lot of confidence and a very interesting deck from a top quality printer.  If your deck were $9-10 I would jump on it but at $15 I really come to a dead stop.  Even the Prism: Night Playing Cards came in at $11-13 and had a lot of tricks and effects that really made me stop and look, including a full range of color effects.  While I am immediately attracted to your art and card back, there is just nothing there that pushes it out of the $9-10 deck range.

To put it simply, it is not the $5 more than I think the deck is worth.  I can afford $5.  Most collectors can.  It is just that at $15 my brain says I don't want it.  At $10, I cannot live without it.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 10:57:55 PM by chas0039 »
 

Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2015, 09:39:58 PM »
 

Brian M

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As regards pricing, what the project costs is the producer's problem not the backers'. 

If the producer ends up with a price which is competitive with the pricing of comparable decks on Kickstarter, it will be of no concern to most backers how much profit the producer is making for himself (or not making for himself).

If the price is much lower than comparable decks, astute backers will be concerned that the producer hasn't done his homework, will eventually realize that he is going to lose money, and will abandon the project.   

If the price is significantly higher than comparable decks, then potential backers will take their money somewhere else.  There are plenty of Kickstarter decks, and most collectors are not so obsessive that they have to collect every deck. Their money will go further backing other decks.  The few collectors who are obsessive, and loaded with money, won't suffice to fund the project -- and anyway, even obsessive people can be aggravated  by an unreasonably high price.

So, my advice to this producer would be: set the pricing to be like the pricing of all the other successful Kickstarter projects.  If that means you can't do the project, then don't.  Probably you will be forced to take this advice in the end whether you want to or not, because the project won't fund if you don't.

But there's a flaw in this.  There are cases where a producer can indeed produce a deck for a much lower price.  When purchasing decks in larger amount, for example, the per-deck costs drop, allowing the producer to charge a lower price, perhaps even below the typical market price for a deck.  And what exactly would that typical market price be in the first place?  Different decks have different costs associated with their production because of things like the features of the deck itself or the costs of shipping (if they're still included, since now many projects don't include shipping).  There'd be no way to compare something like the NOC deck or the Silver edition of the 52 Plus Joker Club deck or the Stranger and Stranger Ultimate deck, if they were offered on Kickstarter.

While it sounds nice on the surface, the suggestion you gave oversimplifies the problem of deck pricing.

Your points are valid, but they don't really contradict my main point.  Unless backers have unlimited funds and unlimited obsession to collect every KS deck, they will tend to allocate the funds they have for buying decks rationally.  A deck which is lot more expensive than comparable decks will need to be "more better" (as my son said at 3) than the other decks on some dimension: superior art, a more well-known artist, a more limited run, shiny embossing on the tuck box, holograms, whatever.  A producer can come up with any story he likes as to why he needs to price his deck higher, but even if the story is true, it isn't relevant, except to satisfy himself and the Internet that he is a nice guy..  Nice guy or not, In the end the backers will purchase the decks that provide the best price/performance.

A deck by an artist with no better a track record than the others, or with a print run which is not more limited, or which has no special "features' needs to be around the same price as the others, too.   If it is the first time out by the artist, less limited, or with a printer thought to be inferior, the deck needs to be cheaper than the others.   Or you better hope that backers of Kickstarter deck projects aren't rational.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 09:48:31 PM by Brian M »
 

Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2015, 11:46:20 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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As regards pricing, what the project costs is the producer's problem not the backers'. 

If the producer ends up with a price which is competitive with the pricing of comparable decks on Kickstarter, it will be of no concern to most backers how much profit the producer is making for himself (or not making for himself).

If the price is much lower than comparable decks, astute backers will be concerned that the producer hasn't done his homework, will eventually realize that he is going to lose money, and will abandon the project.   

If the price is significantly higher than comparable decks, then potential backers will take their money somewhere else.  There are plenty of Kickstarter decks, and most collectors are not so obsessive that they have to collect every deck. Their money will go further backing other decks.  The few collectors who are obsessive, and loaded with money, won't suffice to fund the project -- and anyway, even obsessive people can be aggravated  by an unreasonably high price.

So, my advice to this producer would be: set the pricing to be like the pricing of all the other successful Kickstarter projects.  If that means you can't do the project, then don't.  Probably you will be forced to take this advice in the end whether you want to or not, because the project won't fund if you don't.

But there's a flaw in this.  There are cases where a producer can indeed produce a deck for a much lower price.  When purchasing decks in larger amount, for example, the per-deck costs drop, allowing the producer to charge a lower price, perhaps even below the typical market price for a deck.  And what exactly would that typical market price be in the first place?  Different decks have different costs associated with their production because of things like the features of the deck itself or the costs of shipping (if they're still included, since now many projects don't include shipping).  There'd be no way to compare something like the NOC deck or the Silver edition of the 52 Plus Joker Club deck or the Stranger and Stranger Ultimate deck, if they were offered on Kickstarter.

While it sounds nice on the surface, the suggestion you gave oversimplifies the problem of deck pricing.

Your points are valid, but they don't really contradict my main point.  Unless backers have unlimited funds and unlimited obsession to collect every KS deck, they will tend to allocate the funds they have for buying decks rationally.  A deck which is lot more expensive than comparable decks will need to be "more better" (as my son said at 3) than the other decks on some dimension: superior art, a more well-known artist, a more limited run, shiny embossing on the tuck box, holograms, whatever.  A producer can come up with any story he likes as to why he needs to price his deck higher, but even if the story is true, it isn't relevant, except to satisfy himself and the Internet that he is a nice guy..  Nice guy or not, In the end the backers will purchase the decks that provide the best price/performance.

A deck by an artist with no better a track record than the others, or with a print run which is not more limited, or which has no special "features' needs to be around the same price as the others, too.   If it is the first time out by the artist, less limited, or with a printer thought to be inferior, the deck needs to be cheaper than the others.   Or you better hope that backers of Kickstarter deck projects aren't rational.

Yes, the market is generally rational - though I've seen some really strange decks get funded in the past that really shouldn't have, while I've seen great decks fail.

I was refuting a single point you made, which I'll quote:

If the price is much lower than comparable decks, astute backers will be concerned that the producer hasn't done his homework, will eventually realize that he is going to lose money, and will abandon the project.

I showed how there are cases where a deck can actually come in with a lower backer cost while not being a case of the creator not doing his or her homework.  Sure, we have had at least one project where a kid (literally, a kid, on KS with the consent of his parents) thought he could make a Bicycle-branded deck for a mere $1,000, in which case, no, this creator DIDN'T do any homework, though to his credit, he at least didn't tell us that the dog ate it.

But there are also other cases where a deck can come in with a really low price - a key example would be Jackson Robinson's Silver Arrow project.  Granted, the project didn't fund because he canceled it, but in terms of the budget, he was spot on to make a project that would cost a mere $6 a deck to the backer, a price that's practically unheard of.  The point of the project was that by producing in a much larger number than usual, he was able to get per-deck costs very low, to the point that he could undercut the price of practically all the decks on Kickstarter and still make a profit on it.  Unfortunately, this message got lost when he created a limited edition version of the deck which couldn't be purchased and collectors complained over the fact that they had to buy multiples of the standard edition in order to get the limited edition.

Another prime example was the Bicycle Spectrum deck by magician Cosmo Solano.  He created a trick deck where all the cards had a different colors back, and the project as a whole had a tiny goal, merely $5,000 for a limited edition print run of 5,000 decks.  It wasn't that he got some kind of really sweet deal from USPC - it was that he was providing some of the funding out of his own pocket.  He actually had adequate funds to make the entire print run on his own, privately funded, without any Kickstarter project.  But he brought the project to KS with the intent of generating an audience, because even back then, people were realizing that all the eyeballs in the card collector community were hanging out at KS, looking for decks to fund.  In the end, he created more than just one print run, the project was so popular.

So a low price tag isn't an automatic red flag that someone doesn't know what they're doing.  I'll grant that in many cases is it, but you can't simply label a low-goal or low-deck-cost project as an imminent failure solely for the reason of the lower goal or the lower cost per deck to the backer.  As a criterion for evaluating a project, it doesn't stand on its own and shouldn't even be a consideration unless the other factors are present, such as an insanely low, no private funding is being used, the printer is known to be more costly than the amount of money sought, the creator lacks any practical business experience beyond "You want fries with that?," etc.

You have raised some interesting points in regards to collectors.

After this campaign is funded, Fyodor definitely would like to have limited run prints of this and another deck he is developing.  We will definitely keep this feedback in mind and produce future decks with the collector in mind.  Especially the advice of printers.  We are already exploring costing with the current kickstarter to see about adding a new stretch goal to change printers.

In regards to pricing based around the market.  We have developed the pricing do to our local market.  I understand that this is appealing to a worldwide crowd, but majority of support and the sale of the extra decks will be locally, or at least in Australia.  We will expand our targeted demographic into the future.

I would like to compare the pricing to a cost of beer.  In our kickstarter, the price of a collection of 54 pieces of artwork that has been developed by the artist for the past 8 years is roughly the same price of a 6 pack of decent beer.  The surplus decks will be sold in various shops and galleries for roughly the price of a case of cheap beer. 

If we have 250 decks leftover, the amount of money that we can get from that will be enough that we can reprint the decks without asking for help.  One goal we have is to not become dependent on crowd funding. 

Again, I really appreciate all the feedback, we have wanted to produce the best quality, best feeling, best handling decks.  Now that we know that their is a community with such passion about this medium I am certain we can develop something amazing with the more esteemed collector in mind, as opposed to the person who wants a really cool deck of cards. 

Do remember, this is our first time doing a project as large as this.  Your support and positive attitude can do wonders.

Considering what Kickstarter is, you should consider from day one that your audience will be global, not merely local.  If you were seeking only local buyers, then you need to find "Kickstarter.com.au" or whatever the local equivalent would be (assuming it even exists).  It's one thing if you're creating a geographically-based project of some kind, be it funding for the world's first underground park with piped-in sunlight (yes, it's a project running right now, the Lowline, to be constructed in an abandoned trolley yard under the Lower East Side of Manhattan) or if you're creating a deck like the Tacoma deck, where every single image on each card is of a local landmark that most people outside of the area would never have heard of.  It's quite another when the project is simply a deck of cards with no specific geographic attachment to it other than the creators' desire to distribute it locally.

I would compare it to walking to the edge of the Grand Canyon, shouting something into the canyon and expecting to be heard only by the few people standing next to you and not the dozens or hundreds of campers within earshot of the echo.  Another apt comparison would be to take out an ad in a national magazine about your studio apartment for rent in a small town somewhere in the middle of nowhere in particular.  You might want to find a renter who lives or at least works within a few miles, but you're advertising to an audience spread out over hundreds or even thousands of miles from where your apartment is.

Does a localized version of Kickstarter exist near you?  Probably not.  But what did people do before Kickstarter?  They advertised a product they planned to make and, if they lacked the funding but didn't require too much to get it off the ground, they took pre-orders to ease the financial burden of paying for the creation of the project first.  If you were only seeking local customers in modest numbers, that would have been a better model to follow.  Additionally, a more traditional funding route might have worked better, such as partnering with a retailer also interested in a more local or domestic focus that was willing to make the investment.
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Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2015, 05:12:30 AM »
 

madscienceatwork

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"As regards pricing, what the project costs is the producer's problem not the backers'. 

If the producer ends up with a price which is competitive with the pricing of comparable decks on Kickstarter, it will be of no concern to most backers how much profit the producer is making for himself (or not making for himself)."



I never thought of myself as a producer, but merely a friend trying to help out a fellow artist.  I am not making money.  I am trying to make his dream come true.  None the less, I guess I am helping a lot with this project.  After we succeed with this, I know that we will be able to develop a project that will appeal more towards a market such as this one. 

"Considering what Kickstarter is, you should consider from day one that your audience will be global, not merely local.  If you were seeking only local buyers, then you need to find "Kickstarter.com.au" or whatever the local equivalent would be (assuming it even exists).  It's one thing if you're creating a geographically-based project of some kind, be it funding for the world's first underground park with piped-in sunlight (yes, it's a project running right now, the Lowline, to be constructed in an abandoned trolley yard under the Lower East Side of Manhattan) or if you're creating a deck like the Tacoma deck, where every single image on each card is of a local landmark that most people outside of the area would never have heard of.  It's quite another when the project is simply a deck of cards with no specific geographic attachment to it other than the creators' desire to distribute it locally.

I would compare it to walking to the edge of the Grand Canyon, shouting something into the canyon and expecting to be heard only by the few people standing next to you and not the dozens or hundreds of campers within earshot of the echo.  Another apt comparison would be to take out an ad in a national magazine about your studio apartment for rent in a small town somewhere in the middle of nowhere in particular.  You might want to find a renter who lives or at least works within a few miles, but you're advertising to an audience spread out over hundreds or even thousands of miles from where your apartment is.

Does a localized version of Kickstarter exist near you?  Probably not.  But what did people do before Kickstarter?  They advertised a product they planned to make and, if they lacked the funding but didn't require too much to get it off the ground, they took pre-orders to ease the financial burden of paying for the creation of the project first.  If you were only seeking local customers in modest numbers, that would have been a better model to follow.  Additionally, a more traditional funding route might have worked better, such as partnering with a retailer also interested in a more local or domestic focus that was willing to make the investment."


Kickstarter is an easy tool to appeal to our market.  If you search kickstarter geographically.  We are the second most popular in Australia.  Lot's of people fund local project through it.  It is relatively simple, we advertise to our local market and tell them we have a kickstarter campaign. 

I feel that many people here are displeased as this campaign is not the usual campaign.  It is higher cost than you are used to by an artist you are unfamiliar with a printer that does not have the quality you would like.  These are all valid points and you have been heard. 

I am happy to offer a limited promotion for this forum.  If you support us in "Warmest Regards" category, $15 AUD, I'll add a deck with free shipping as well as the postcard to the first 25 people if we get successfully funded.  All that I ask is that you send us a message saying you came from the Playingcardforum.  I understand there is no way to hold us accountable to this other than trusting me.  The offer is their though. 

Now, to steer the conversation back to the TeaTime deck, we have been in contact with Expert and LPC.  We are interested in LPC, especially, perhaps for the other deck that has been developed, The Devils Hand.  In regards to LPC, the paperstock, what is everyones opinion on it.  There are three types available, Diamond, Classic, and Emerald.  Which is your favourite?  Especially in regards to card handling.
 

Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2015, 06:50:19 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Kickstarter is an easy tool to appeal to our market.  If you search kickstarter geographically.  We are the second most popular in Australia.  Lot's of people fund local project through it.  It is relatively simple, we advertise to our local market and tell them we have a kickstarter campaign. 

I feel that many people here are displeased as this campaign is not the usual campaign.  It is higher cost than you are used to by an artist you are unfamiliar with a printer that does not have the quality you would like.  These are all valid points and you have been heard. 

I am happy to offer a limited promotion for this forum.  If you support us in "Warmest Regards" category, $15 AUD, I'll add a deck with free shipping as well as the postcard to the first 25 people if we get successfully funded.  All that I ask is that you send us a message saying you came from the Playingcardforum.  I understand there is no way to hold us accountable to this other than trusting me.  The offer is their though. 

Now, to steer the conversation back to the TeaTime deck, we have been in contact with Expert and LPC.  We are interested in LPC, especially, perhaps for the other deck that has been developed, The Devils Hand.  In regards to LPC, the paperstock, what is everyones opinion on it.  There are three types available, Diamond, Classic, and Emerald.  Which is your favourite?  Especially in regards to card handling.


Yes, there's plenty of geo-specific projects.  But they're geo-specific because they're "attached" to a particular place, such as a park, or a deck of cards about a specific city.  You're taking a general project and telling us that you meant to make it local, but there's nothing about the project really that makes it local specifically - except perhaps that you're trying to start a card business in Australia, and perhaps that's what the project really should have been labeled as, because it's about time someone went to start a company and not just make another deck!

I'm in the process of writing an article for CARD CULTURE Magazine about card stocks and finishes, specifically from those two companies - they share a lot of expertise as well as the same printing plant in Taipei and I believe they use the same paper sources as well.  I'm also working on getting info sourced from USPC included in there as well, but I'm not holding my breath.

In order from least embossed to most embossed offered by Legend, you have Diamond, Classic and I believe Emerald, if it is what I think it is.  Expert uses the same stocks under different names - Diamond is known there as Master, Classic has the same name and I think Emerald is known at Expert as Damask.  There is a fourth stock that's still in the experimental stage, codenamed "Iron Stock" - it's their hardest, thickest stock yet, a full 2.5mm thicker by the deck than their next-thickest paper.  It might be too firm for some people, but it's something to ask about.

Bear in mind that they use pre-embossed stock sourced from somewhere in Europe - when they refer to a finish, that finish has a matched stock that you find it on, so they sometimes use the terms "stock" and "finish" interchangeably.  Also, the hardness/stiffness of the stock DOES NOT correspond to the embossing depth.  The firmest stock they have, the new "Iron" stock they're messing around with now, is also (I believe) their most-deeply embossed (I have to fact-check this to be certain), with the order continuing as Master/Diamond, Classic and Damask/Emerald, the last one being the softest stock offered.

Master/Diamond is the thinnest stock offered, and is also the longest-lasting (at least until testing on Iron is completed).
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Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2015, 08:24:24 AM »
 

Brian M

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I'm not maintaining that prices can't be low without triggering concerns. I'm all for low prices. If I had been more precise, and even more verbose than I am already, I should have said that an unduly low price without any clear reason for it might trigger concerns.   

Actually, a low-priced edition will probably trigger concerns anyway, even if the low price is explicable, though for different reasons than I mentioned previously. Because of the typical KS backer's strong preference for highly-limited editions and particular printers, the main avenues for achieving a lower price are pretty much closed off.   Jackson Robinson's Silver Arrow experience is a real object lesson: if he can't make a low-priced edition work on Kickstarter, who can?
 

Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2015, 05:49:10 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I'm not maintaining that prices can't be low without triggering concerns. I'm all for low prices. If I had been more precise, and even more verbose than I am already, I should have said that an unduly low price without any clear reason for it might trigger concerns.   

Actually, a low-priced edition will probably trigger concerns anyway, even if the low price is explicable, though for different reasons than I mentioned previously. Because of the typical KS backer's strong preference for highly-limited editions and particular printers, the main avenues for achieving a lower price are pretty much closed off.   Jackson Robinson's Silver Arrow experience is a real object lesson: if he can't make a low-priced edition work on Kickstarter, who can?

Actually, he could have, had he made a few changes, not the least of which dropping the limited edition version.  The project never made it to the closing date, at his choice.

Limited editions aren't the sole reason people seek cards on Kickstarter, nor is it the sole reason why people collect playing cards.  But the financing offered by Kickstarter by its very nature lends itself to the creation of limited editions - a single round of funding, run for a short term.  Of all the people involved in making playing cards on Kickstarter, I've seen countless projects for making a deck of cards - and none for making a business that makes playing cards.
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Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2015, 06:46:17 PM »
 

HolyJJ

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Master/Diamond is the thinnest stock offered, and is also the longest-lasting (at least until testing on Iron is completed).


Don,

Unless the Emerald Finish that is currently offered has changed from what was used for the Serpentine deck, then the thinnest stock would be the Emerald Finish and not the Master/Diamond Finish.

I've been using nothing but LPCC (and sometimes EPCC) decks for over half a year, and so far I've not handled a single deck from them which has thinner cards than the Serpentine cards.

Diamond/Master Finish is definitely the longest lasting though -- especially the latest decks utilising Diamond/Master (they're a lot more slick than earlier decks).‎
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Re: TeaTime now live on Kickstarter
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2015, 06:49:03 PM »
 

madscienceatwork

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I have a quick question.  The EPCC website is not working and their facebook has not had a post since April.   I can send them a message through facebook, or twitter, but I would prefer to know more about them and have at least an email to contact them with.