The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)

[NgNash]

Hi guys,

I'm Nash, creator of POTO Deck of Playing Cards.
Its my pleasure to present to you this deck and I'm inviting you to check out our campaign. Limited edition, with golden foil edges (gilded), two boxes (tuck box with emboss and luxurious black box with golden logo print on the lid), certificates with serial numbers etc.
Note that campaign is in Australian dollars (1$AUD=0,77$USD) that's often confusing moment, but what we can do -_-  .. anyway   enjoy the artwork and the trailer:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/iluzijastudio/the-phantom-of-the-opera-playing-cards-deck






The card edges are gold foiled, and the tuck box has embossed detail!



This deck of cards features all of the main characters from Gaston Leroux's epic tale, including Leroux himself! All characters are hand-drawn with original design and concept.







These are the specifications we got from the printer we inquired about the cards printing:
black core paper 310 gsm , linen finish, casino quality
glossy finish
embossed tuck box
hard box with gold hot stamping
24k gold foil for the card edges
certificate with gold foil printing.

[chas0039]

Very impressive efforts!  I am sorry you are out of my price range, but good luck.  Looks like you will sell out soon.

[Don Boyer]

I'm agreed on that price - you should have made a non-gilded version for general release; you could have made a lot more money on them.  You don't even state who the manufacturer is, as far as I can tell - but I did look quickly so I might have missed it.

[chas0039]

He said in the Comments section of the KS page that "We have offers from a couple of printing companies, since its a very specific project and it's a small run we will be very careful about the final decision. We are a studio with professional and skilled graphic designers with experience regarding printing process, so we will insure the best final result."

At least one backer is not happy that the printer hasn't been decided before the campaign was announced.

I agree; the printer is the first thing I look for after the price.

[Don Boyer]

He said in the Comments section of the KS page that "We have offers from a couple of printing companies, since its a very specific project and it's a small run we will be very careful about the final decision. We are a studio with professional and skilled graphic designers with experience regarding printing process, so we will insure the best final result."

At least one backer is not happy that the printer hasn't been decided before the campaign was announced.

I agree; the printer is the first thing I look for after the price.

This raises big red flags, as I see it - how can they possibly price the job if they don't have the printer lined up?  They set their goal in the blind, guessing what the printing would cost them without an actual price quote to work from.  Do they know what the gilding will cost?  They say the gilding will be done with foil - not all printers use foil; some use gold paint, and some (such as USPC) have a minimum print run size of 10,000 for gilded decks because of the added cost.  Will the printer do the gilding, or do they have a third party lined up for it - and if so, what about resealing the decks?

There's a reason Uusi charges what they charge for hand-gilded decks using metal foil - the process is painstakingly precise and your attention can't waver for a moment.  The foil used is so light, it floats in the air while they're working on it.  Lose focus and make one tiny mistake and that entire deck is ruined and you start from scratch with a new one.  I don't see how it's possible that these guys can price out the project without taking all these things into account - and they can't take printing into account if they haven't got a printer already.

Even if they were $5 a pack, I wouldn't touch this project.  Too many questions, not enough good answers.

[Rob Wright]

NgNash. How come such a short campaign. Only 12 days is not a lot of time to build backers.

[NgNash]

NgNash. How come such a short campaign. Only 12 days is not a lot of time to build backers.

Hi Rob,
We build are backers in advance. Its helpful to have two Phantom campaign before this since we are making the first animated feature + thru to the book.... but guess card collectors aren't that interested in poto stuff
I think 13 days campaign is enough, since campaign will either work or not. Our previous campaigns showed that it just an agony to have long ones, so thus decision.

[NgNash]

There's a reason Uusi charges what they charge for hand-gilded decks using metal foil - the process is painstakingly precise and your attention can't waver for a moment.  The foil used is so light, it floats in the air while they're working on it.  Lose focus and make one tiny mistake and that entire deck is ruined and you start from scratch with a new one.  I don't see how it's possible that these guys can price out the project without taking all these things into account - and they can't take printing into account if they haven't got a printer already.

Don, you are 100% right there. Having gilded decks is not a joke. But we didn't start campaign without examples and tests.
The reason why it's not known company:  we are not  from US! Having USPCC is not an option. Import/tax costs are far to great. Importing this big number of decks pulls a question of gambling services, which asks for additional licenses etc. Bottom line? Not worth doing that.
Our deck is created for some time now, and we were exploring a LOT options before we finally started. We worked a numerous projects that included golden/silver foil and similar products (for pricy weddings, special occasions etc.). As you said, that is touchy moment, and I'm much more conformable printing somewhere where we can control. Of course we can't make 10,000 decks and that would be suicide. So that's why we are creating smaller batch that will be overlooked and handled. It's much more logical and doable. Thus a bit higher price, but not that high having in mind what this deck will have and presents.
And who we are - anyone could find out if tried to watch short trailer or read below it. We are Serbian-Australian co-production, Iluzija Animation Studio (thus Europa/Australia moment). Besides animation, we have huge design and printing department where we handle bunch of projects. As mentioned, we are working on POTO Animated feature and making this Deck looking good is a must for future needs, plans and goals.

Hope this clears questions for bit.
I'm here if you guys have more questions

Nash

[Don Boyer]

There's a reason Uusi charges what they charge for hand-gilded decks using metal foil - the process is painstakingly precise and your attention can't waver for a moment.  The foil used is so light, it floats in the air while they're working on it.  Lose focus and make one tiny mistake and that entire deck is ruined and you start from scratch with a new one.  I don't see how it's possible that these guys can price out the project without taking all these things into account - and they can't take printing into account if they haven't got a printer already.

Don, you are 100% right there. Having gilded decks is not a joke. But we didn't start campaign without examples and tests.
The reason why it's not known company:  we are not  from US! Having USPCC is not an option. Import/tax costs are far to great. Importing this big number of decks pulls a question of gambling services, which asks for additional licenses etc. Bottom line? Not worth doing that.
Our deck is created for some time now, and we were exploring a LOT options before we finally started. We worked a numerous projects that included golden/silver foil and similar products (for pricy weddings, special occasions etc.). As you said, that is touchy moment, and I'm much more conformable printing somewhere where we can control. Of course we can't make 10,000 decks and that would be suicide. So that's why we are creating smaller batch that will be overlooked and handled. It's much more logical and doable. Thus a bit higher price, but not that high having in mind what this deck will have and presents.
And who we are - anyone could find out if tried to watch short trailer or read below it. We are Serbian-Australian co-production, Iluzija Animation Studio (thus Europa/Australia moment). Besides animation, we have huge design and printing department where we handle bunch of projects. As mentioned, we are working on POTO Animated feature and making this Deck looking good is a must for future needs, plans and goals.

Hope this clears questions for bit.
I'm here if you guys have more questions

Nash

Nash, let's make this very simple.

What company is printing the deck?

For card collectors, the company that makes the deck actually matters.  Some companies are known for excellent quality, some are known for mediocre, passable decks, some are known for making utter garbage - and some aren't known at all.  But one way or another, it matters - especially when you're asking the kind of dollar amount you're asking for these decks.  Would you pay luxury-car or sports-car prices for a sub-compact economy car with vinyl seats and an AM radio?  I know I wouldn't, and I wouldn't pay those prices you're asking without knowing something about who made the deck.

[NgNash]

So here is what we got as answer from MPC as example:

"Please note that the minimum order quantity of 310g air linen is 1000 decks.
Meanwhile, please note that currently we do not offer gilded card edges and foil stamping on cards."

Even I know that they had very recently a campaign with foiled card backs! so, what - they are keeping this technique for themselves?! Not only this, we are getting all different restrictions for what we want from these companies while we know what we want. So I choose to do this locally so I can CONTROL the process.

Anyway, here is the first Add-on guys + some Gifts : ) we've pass 5/13K (for 14 hours)

Booklet presents the history behind POTO project, and how all lead toward POTO Deck. There are rough Artworks used for creating the Deck + much more.

[chas0039]

Curiouser and curiouser.

Didn't think they were Aussie.

[PrincessTrouble]

Are these bridge size cards?

[NgNash]

Are these bridge size cards?

No I'm afraid - they are Poker size cards ^^

[chas0039]

Are these bridge size cards?

No I'm afraid - they are Poker size cards ^^

That is not a problem.  We want poker sized.

[NgNash]

cool chas

Btw. folks - 48% funded with 90 backers in 26 hours. Thanks to all who supported us from here

[Don Boyer]

So here is what we got as answer from MPC as example:

"Please note that the minimum order quantity of 310g air linen is 1000 decks.
Meanwhile, please note that currently we do not offer gilded card edges and foil stamping on cards."

Even I know that they had very recently a campaign with foiled card backs! so, what - they are keeping this technique for themselves?! Not only this, we are getting all different restrictions for what we want from these companies while we know what we want. So I choose to do this locally so I can CONTROL the process.

Anyway, here is the first Add-on guys + some Gifts : ) we've pass 5/13K (for 14 hours)

Booklet presents the history behind POTO project, and how all lead toward POTO Deck. There are rough Artworks used for creating the Deck + much more.

Foil on card backs and foil on card edges (a.k.a. gilding) are two entirely different things.  If you knew playing cards and printing, you know this.

So - it's clear that MPC isn't your printer.  So who is?  It was a simple question, deserving of a simple answer, but remains unanswered.  You're promising more and more to people yet I have serious doubts about whether you're able to deliver AND to do so within the budget you've set.

[chas0039]

So.......still no printer??

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/iluzijastudio/the-phantom-of-the-opera-playing-cards-deck/posts/1286485

Based on this very confusing update, it looks as though he plans to print and gild it himself!

[Justin O.]

Hi guys,

I'm Nash, creator of POTO Deck of Playing Cards.

Hey Nash, I like the subject you have chosen to make a deck of cards, and am a big fan a gilding and foil stamping.

Who are you using to print?

[NgNash]

So.......still no printer??

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/iluzijastudio/the-phantom-of-the-opera-playing-cards-deck/posts/1286485

Based on this very confusing update, it looks as though he plans to print and gild it himself!

haha

Printer is local. We can't work with USPCC and Legend/MPC doesn't offer what we need, so after a lot of thought we decided for local printer office with whom we worked for few years and whom we can control.
Our studio has design department which mostly works for luxury weddings in Luxembourg, New Zealand, Australia. Thus great experience with golden edges, foils etc. Working locally we can get exact result as we want while searching for known companies who have restrictions... I didn't like that. Others ask for abnormal quantities...

I know that this isn't something that card collectors are used to, but that's our best option in this moment. Getting good print and deck is very important for our project!

Guys, working with cards is not our main activity. That doesn't mean that we wont provide good cards. This is small project, not several thousand-copies deck. I am not wishing for garbage and to destroy everything that our company worked for.

[chas0039]

Has your "local printer" printed cards before?  Have they done gilding on a deck before?  Have they a name and maybe a website so we can see their work?

[Justin O.]

Printer is local. We can't work with USPCC and Legend/MPC doesn't offer what we need, so after a lot of thought we decided for local printer office with whom we worked for few years and whom we can control.
Our studio has design department which mostly works for luxury weddings in Luxembourg, New Zealand, Australia. Thus great experience with golden edges, foils etc. Working locally we can get exact result as we want while searching for known companies who have restrictions... I didn't like that. Others ask for abnormal quantities...
I know that this isn't something that card collectors are used to, but that's our best option in this moment. Getting good print and deck is very important for our project!
Guys, working with cards is not our main activity. That doesn't mean that we wont provide good cards. This is small project, not several thousand-copies deck. I am not wishing for garbage and to destroy everything that our company worked for.

Playing cards require different materials than wedding invitations and stationary. I'm wondering if a deck of playing cards is the right way to go as a promotional part of your project. it seems like with the materials and printers you have access to something like illustrated prints, or posters, something of that ilk might be better suited to your vision.

As it stands now you are going to be printing a sup-par deck of playing cards using a printer that isn't familiar with making decks of cards and will be using materials that aren't suited to be playing cards. You will be making a novelty deck that won't live up to expectations for a quality deck of playing cards.

You are promising your backers the highest in playing card quality, but you aren't going to be living up to that, you are going to be delivering the highest quality in wedding reception placards with suits and pips. Have you thought about distributing through any number of distribution companies in the US to be able to use a reputable printer and not need to worry about import restrictions on build playing card orders? Maybe Expert Playing Card Company? Have you looked into their options?

[NgNash]

Has your "local printer" printed cards before?  Have they done gilding on a deck before?  Have they a name and maybe a website so we can see their work?

Most probably printer is Temilov.rs whom we worked a lot. They are on market for 28 years (offering all kinds of techniques and possibilities). Cards aren't their main activity but they offer all that we need for this deck + I know them! meaning that they will do good job! Cards are not their usual bid, but printing cards, dealing with foils is something that they do.
Dealing for weddings is more tricky if you ask me. Try imagining the bride who doesn't get perfect for her wedding that she paid a lot!
Temilov are not the only ones that we consider (Å print, data-copy etc.) + we are considering some foreign too.
Again! we're studio for animated film, not cardist company. This project is one-time, mainly in purpose of animated feature that we are producing. This is unique deck, rare, not commercial one and yes, we will make it right!
If something changes in the meantime, you will know (getting to some bigger printer or something similar). My main priority is getting a good deck - I don't care who is the printer.

[Don Boyer]

Most probably printer is Temilov.rs whom we worked a lot. They are on market for 28 years (offering all kinds of techniques and possibilities). Cards aren't their main activity but they offer all that we need for this deck + I know them! meaning that they will do good job! Cards are not their usual bid, but printing cards, dealing with foils is something that they do.
Dealing for weddings is more tricky if you ask me. Try imagining the bride who doesn't get perfect for her wedding that she paid a lot!
Temilov are not the only ones that we consider (Šprint, data-copy etc.) + we are considering some foreign too.
Again! we're studio for animated film, not cardist company. This project is one-time, mainly in purpose of animated feature that we are producing. This is unique deck, rare, not commercial one and yes, we will make it right!
If something changes in the meantime, you will know (getting to some bigger printer or something similar). My main priority is getting a good deck - I don't care who is the printer.

Those two statements I highlighted in bold, red letters are in complete and total opposition with each other.  You want to make a good deck - but you don't care who makes it?  So you're planning to hire a company that doesn't even make playing cards - and expect them to make a good deck?

Look, you might be head of the best animation studio in the world - hell, you might have the Nobel Peace Prize - but it's clear that you really don't have a clue about making a good deck of playing cards at all.  If you did, you damn well WOULD CARE about who's making it!  I don't care if you plan to make a few hundred or a few hundred million decks - you should care about the printer and you should choose a printer that makes playing cards, for the same reasons why you don't see your mechanic for an earache and you don't go to your florist to fix a broken air conditioner.

Good luck with your project - it's plain and clear to me that you're going to need every last drop of it and then some.  I would offer my services as a consultant, but you may be beyond my help, based on the statements you've made thus far.  Me, personally, I do not plan to back it, and I don't recommend others do so either, unless of course they're fond of disappointment.

[NgNash]

Ok, Don - yeah, I wanted to write "the name of the printer" of course I care about the printer. If we could do something with more popular/known company - we would, you don't need to doubt that.
Anyway, thank you for your opinion and advices. Noted. We will try better next time.

I still care about this deck and I'll fight for it
So far 102 backers with over $7000... thank you guys. I'll not disappoint you.

[Don Boyer]

Ok, Don - yeah, I wanted to write "the name of the printer" of course I care about the printer. If we could do something with more popular/known company - we would, you don't need to doubt that.
Anyway, thank you for your opinion and advices. Noted. We will try better next time.

I still care about this deck and I'll fight for it
So far 102 backers with over $7000... thank you guys. I'll not disappoint you.

Actually, you could do something with a more popular, known company - one that's actually known for making playing cards!  Maybe it wouldn't be gilded in the way you state this deck will, but then again, it's hard to say if anything about this deck will be made the way you state it will be, because you haven't actually chosen a printer and the one you think you're going to use doesn't even make playing cards.  The way you're going about this, it's like choosing to have your wisdom teeth pulled out through your ear.  You're doing this in a way that insanely more difficult than it has to be and far more likely to end in failure.  You may hit you goal, you may double or triple it, but to produce a deck of cards that's worth what your reward tiers charge for it is next-to-impossible, the way that you're going about it.  And all that extra stuff - the calendars, the books, the movie script, etc. - only pulls focus away from the project's main goal of making the deck, or is the main goal promoting the movie?  Based on the way you're running it, it's hard to really know for certain.

Why on Earth would you not choose an affordable, reliable playing card manufacturer, instead preferring a printing company based in Serbia (not exactly known as the playing card capital of the world) whose website is dominated by business card designs?  Sure, they're stylish business cards - but they're BUSINESS cards, not PLAYING cards!  To expect people to pay a very premium price for a deck of cards from a company that doesn't make playing cards, though they are a print company, is like paying a premium price for a sports car from a moped company, because while they've never made a sports car before, they do make things with motors and wheels...  Based on your backing thus far, there appears to be plenty of people willing to roll the dice and take their chances - one of the good and bad things about Kickstarter, really - but I won't be one of them and I doubt I'm alone in that opinion.