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The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)

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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2015, 05:29:20 PM »
 

NgNash

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Yes Don, I know that you aren't supporting this deck. And as said that's ok. I'm just saying that I did what I could - and they are not some lame printer that do just business cards. You don't know them and that's ok to have doubts but don't talk like that about someone that you dont know and their work. I respect them better then some foreign companies. They do lots of stuff, including decks. But yeah we aren't the capitol for decks like US/China

We made the project, we made the deck and decided to publish it despite everything. And I've chosen(or will choose) best option for it. Like it, don't - support it or don't all that's ok. I'm bit tired of this conversation.
Guys - we are making 700 decks, known companies wont take this number + they are limiting us with what we can get. We are still beginners, we dont have big base of backers to support big campaigns with 500 backers for decks of $10. We're not from US. Shipment and taxes are killing us. This deck is mostly for fans of POTO franchise, its different, rare it will be handled carefully and supervised so that I get what I want! I founded both school for animation and the studio, and I didn't do that by not getting what I want.
This deck is important to me. I hope that matters.

Best ;)

 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 05:30:56 PM by NgNash »
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2015, 06:05:18 PM »
 

chas0039

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This is getting a bit heavy, even from the sidelines.  I can see Nash is targeting a different audience from a lot of usual collectors and the unfortunate side effect would seem to be most of the consequences pointed out by Don.

It is a shame you didn't just go for the 1000 deck minimum and get a company with experience to print this.  So much of this conjecture about the quality would just not ever have come up.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2015, 06:16:38 PM »
 

Brian M

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Coming up with a successful playing card project for Kickstarter and delivering a deck that will satisfy the Kickstarter backers is really not that hard.  Success isn't guaranteed, but over the last couple of years, it has been done literally dozens, if not hundreds, of times.  You don't have to be in the U.S.  You don't have to have much artistic talent.  High-school and college kids succeed at it regularly.  A deck of playing cards is not a moon rocket. There is a formula for these projects and it only requires a little bit of paying attention to figure out what that formula is.    Listening to what experienced people in this forum are tryiing to tell you would  be a good start.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2015, 07:00:54 PM »
 

NgNash

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I agree actually. When we started informing etc. making even 500 decks sounded too much! (mistake? probably.) Getting 1000 - I think that someone here would kill me :D
So, we found ourselves wanting 700 decks (then turned to 666 but that's another story). Anyway, our general trouble is - we are from Europe, but we are not from European Union. Customs is really harsh :/   Another problem was with Australia - triple cost for shipment etc. etc.

Anyway, we are here now. I learned a lot from you guys, so who knows - maybe next time I will ask for help someone here (shipment, printing advices etc.) should I done that before? Probably :) But as chas said - we had in mind phans (phantom fans) and if some collectors join - cool.
But, I must say again - this doesn't mean we wont make good deck. Supported or not - I'll post pictures here once they're done. I'll give my best.

O, someone said (I think not here) that he actually dont like that deck is linked to animated feature. I'm curious what you think about that. Isn't good thing for deck to have some story behind? We're actually offering the Art of as booklet, which is version of the Art of POTO from our previous campaign. Phans were asking for that, so why not...
Anyway, what's your thoughts about that? Did anyone here watched the trailer for film?

Thanks.

P.S. if admins think this isn't a thread for this question - its ok, I'll stop it.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 07:01:35 PM by NgNash »
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2015, 11:33:06 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I agree actually. When we started informing etc. making even 500 decks sounded too much! (mistake? probably.) Getting 1000 - I think that someone here would kill me :D
So, we found ourselves wanting 700 decks (then turned to 666 but that's another story). Anyway, our general trouble is - we are from Europe, but we are not from European Union. Customs is really harsh :/   Another problem was with Australia - triple cost for shipment etc. etc.

Anyway, we are here now. I learned a lot from you guys, so who knows - maybe next time I will ask for help someone here (shipment, printing advices etc.) should I done that before? Probably :) But as chas said - we had in mind phans (phantom fans) and if some collectors join - cool.
But, I must say again - this doesn't mean we wont make good deck. Supported or not - I'll post pictures here once they're done. I'll give my best.

O, someone said (I think not here) that he actually dont like that deck is linked to animated feature. I'm curious what you think about that. Isn't good thing for deck to have some story behind? We're actually offering the Art of as booklet, which is version of the Art of POTO from our previous campaign. Phans were asking for that, so why not...
Anyway, what's your thoughts about that? Did anyone here watched the trailer for film?

Thanks.

P.S. if admins think this isn't a thread for this question - its ok, I'll stop it.

Actually, your questions are the right ones for this thread.

Honestly, your project isn't a project for a pack of playing cards, despite the statements you've made.  If you stop and think about this and look at the items you're offering on the reward tiers, it's really a project to raise awareness of your movie by selling merchandise related to the movie, among which there so happens to be a deck of playing cards.

You've mentioned the harshness of Customs and shipping and so forth - these are not insurmountable problems.  It's been pointed out to you here that there have been dozens if not hundreds of successful projects done for less money that made excellent, professional-grade playing cards.  I think you're being extremely over-ambitious by making a gilded deck and using a company not known for its expertise at making playing cards.  If you took your project to, for example, Expert Playing Card Company or Legends Playing Card Company, they could make you cards that are casino-grade.  Legends offers order fulfillment services, and Expert, last time I checked, was experimenting with using fulfillment services straight from the factory.  For a LOT less money than what you're asking for to make this project, you could have made a great deck of cards AND by using a fulfillment company outside of Serbia you could have completely dodged the issue of your country's high Customs and mailing costs because most of the decks would never have ended up crossing the border into Serbia in the first place - just those that you wanted to distribute domestically.

All you really needed to do to solve these issues would have been to come here first, before launching your project, and asking a few intelligent questions.  In fact, even that is "overkill" - just reading about other projects with similar circumstances would have been enough, but by asking for yourself, you'd be getting information that's practically custom-tailored to your needs.

When people see a project that:
- doesn't have a vendor to make the final product picked BEFORE launch,
- doesn't use a vendor that specializes in making that product, and
- provides vague and unusual answers to simple inquiries about the product,

...it raises a lot of red flags.  Far better projects have failed for less.  Seriously, how could you even set your goal without knowing what the printing of the deck would cost?  Making the deck as expensive as it is when you don't even have a clear, well-defined budget (which you can't yet have because you haven't even selected and finalized a deal with the printer BEFORE launch, like nearly every single other playing card project ever launched on Kickstarter) just seems like the work of an amateur, not a professional; like you're trying to solve the problem of getting the decks made by throwing money at it - the money of your backers!  So forgive us if we seem so skeptical.

Since I'm fond of metaphors, here's how I see this...  Think of this project like a mountain in your path, one that's so big, it looks like it can't be climbed.  Most people, when they see this mountain, will plot a course around it, or perhaps will hire some kind of aircraft and fly over it.  Some hardy souls might even attempt that climb, buying the equipment and hiring the sherpas needed for the journey - and with care and patience, they might succeed.  Your solution is more like trying to fling yourself over the mountain on a trebuchet...it's difficult, costly, untested and among the riskiest of solutions to the problem at hand.  When easier, more effective, tried-and-true solutions exist - USE THEM!
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2015, 01:52:20 PM »
 

NgNash

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Dealing with decks is tricky and needs to be done carefully and professional, but as someone mentioned previously (here or might be elsewhere), this is not a rocket science, and its not something that any big and serious printer can not do. Of course we are not going to print them on just any paper, the standards must be respected.

These are the specifications we got from the printer we inquired about the cards printing:
black core paper 310 gsm , air cushion finish, casino quality
glossy finish
embossed tuck box
hard box with gold hot stamping
24k gold foil for the card edges
certificate with gold foil printing.

 


 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2015, 02:14:41 PM »
 

Justin O.

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I thought Air Cushion Finish was a Bike thing, no?
Kickstarter completely revolutionized the way I waste money.

The people who handle playing cards are always in a world of delicate fingertip technology.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2015, 02:56:49 PM »
 

NgNash

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I thought Air Cushion Finish was a Bike thing, no?

Its actually linen finish (same thing different name).
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2015, 03:06:35 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Dealing with decks is tricky and needs to be done carefully and professional, but as someone mentioned previously (here or might be elsewhere), this is not a rocket science, and its not something that any big and serious printer can not do. Of course we are not going to print them on just any paper, the standards must be respected.

These are the specifications we got from the printer we inquired about the cards printing:
black core paper 310 gsm , air cushion finish, casino quality
glossy finish
embossed tuck box
hard box with gold hot stamping
24k gold foil for the card edges
certificate with gold foil printing.

Y'see, right there, already you're running into pitfalls...

"Air cushion finish," as already pointed out, is a trademark name of the US Playing Card Company.  You could get into legal problems advertising that...  OK, "linen finish" it is now, as I've read the previous post.  "Same thing?"  Perhaps from USPC it is, but not from other companies.  I have a fun article coming out in issue 8 of CARD CULTURE about stocks and finishes from Expert PCC - you might find it educational.  Finishes can actually have different depths, which will affect the flexibility or stiffness of the card.

310gsm is not casino quality, unless it's a really crappy casino.  That's barely thicker than a pack of Bicycles, which will generally weigh in at about 300gsm - though they now measure in caliper thickness at USPC, last I heard.  Earlier Bicycles were 310gsm, if I remember correctly.  So, nice quality, but not casino quality.

Gold foil applications for gilding are VERY tricky.  If your company doesn't have experience in it, they're going to hit some cost overruns on ruined decks - costs that you'll likely be footing the bill for.  I have a client that sells gilded decks which they make using this process - it's painstaking and very expensive.  They sell their decks for a LOT more than you sell yours, and in tiny, tiny quantities (50 is the amount of a typical run) because they're just so labor-intensive to make.  There's an article about it in issue 7 of CARD CULTURE, if you guys want to read it.  It's my interview with Uusi; Peter Dunham and Linnea Gits.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 03:07:29 PM by Don Boyer »
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2015, 03:31:50 PM »
 

Justin O.

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black core paper 310 gsm , air cushion finish, casino quality
Y'see, right there, already you're running into pitfalls...
"Air cushion finish," as already pointed out, is a trademark name of the US Playing Card Company. 
OK, "linen finish" it is now, as I've read the previous post.  "Same thing?"  Perhaps from USPC it is, but not from other companies.
310gsm is not casino quality, unless it's a really crappy casino. 
though they now measure in caliper thickness at USPC, last I heard.
There's an article about it in issue 7 of CARD CULTURE, if you guys want to read it.  It's my interview with Uusi; Peter Dunham and Linnea Gits.

I can never quite remember the finish specifics, I'm glad I was right though. And I didn't even catch the 310 weight and casino stock labeling contradiction.

Interesting about Bicycle switching away from paper weight to thickness, I wonder why? Maybe to get away from makeplayingcards.com and people being able to say 'XXXgms' stock to make people think 'top tier printer'?
*coughbeautifulmacabrecough*

Also Uusi Studios just posted a couple short videos of Peter laying the leaf on a deck of cards and brushing on the sizing. Very cool to watch.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 03:35:29 PM by Justin O. »
Kickstarter completely revolutionized the way I waste money.

The people who handle playing cards are always in a world of delicate fingertip technology.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2015, 03:51:32 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I can never quite remember the finish specifics, I'm glad I was right though. And I didn't even catch the 310 weight and casino stock labeling contradiction.

Interesting about Bicycle switching away from paper weight to thickness, I wonder why? Maybe to get away from makeplayingcards.com and people being able to say 'XXXgms' stock to make people think 'top tier printer'?
*coughbeautifulmacabrecough*

Also Uusi Studios just posted a couple short videos of Peter laying the leaf on a deck of cards and brushing on the sizing. Very cool to watch.

It probably had more to do with inconsistency in the stocks.  They offer it not in a specific caliper thickness, to my knowledge, but in a specific RANGE of thickness.  I'll have better, more detailed information (hopefully) by issue 9 of CARD CULTURE - USPC is supposed to send me information on the stocks, finishes and other features they offer.

When issue 8 comes out Wednesday next week, it will have a great article on EPCC's offerings plus an exclusive on USPC's new MetalLuxe™ metallic foil process for their cards and (if all things work out) an interview with Lawrence Sullivan of LPCC, plus other great stuff.
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2015, 04:19:47 PM »
 

Justin O.

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I can never quite remember the finish specifics, I'm glad I was right though. And I didn't even catch the 310 weight and casino stock labeling contradiction.

Interesting about Bicycle switching away from paper weight to thickness, I wonder why? Maybe to get away from makeplayingcards.com and people being able to say 'XXXgms' stock to make people think 'top tier printer'?
*coughbeautifulmacabrecough*

Also Uusi Studios just posted a couple short videos of Peter laying the leaf on a deck of cards and brushing on the sizing. Very cool to watch.

It probably had more to do with inconsistency in the stocks.  They offer it not in a specific caliper thickness, to my knowledge, but in a specific RANGE of thickness.  I'll have better, more detailed information (hopefully) by issue 9 of CARD CULTURE - USPC is supposed to send me information on the stocks, finishes and other features they offer.

When issue 8 comes out Wednesday next week, it will have a great article on EPCC's offerings plus an exclusive on USPC's new MetalLuxe™ metallic foil process for their cards and (if all things work out) an interview with Lawrence Sullivan of LPCC, plus other great stuff.

That might end up being the first issue I will have read
Kickstarter completely revolutionized the way I waste money.

The people who handle playing cards are always in a world of delicate fingertip technology.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2015, 05:51:21 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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That might end up being the first issue I will have read

DUDE!  You do NOT know what you're missing!
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2015, 08:15:25 PM »
 

HankMan

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That might end up being the first issue I will have read

DUDE!  You do NOT know what you're missing!


So True... the interview with Uusi was 1 of the article I enjoyed the most  :D
I am also very interested if your interview with Laurence Sullivan happen.

Back for more
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2015, 09:10:33 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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That might end up being the first issue I will have read

DUDE!  You do NOT know what you're missing!


So True... the interview with Uusi was 1 of the article I enjoyed the most  :D
I am also very interested if your interview with Laurence Sullivan happen.

I have to check - it might be delayed until next month's issue, but we might have an interview with Giovanni Meroni to replace it for this month.
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2015, 11:38:04 PM »
 

NgNash

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70% of goal reached :)  7 days more to go.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2015, 01:51:38 AM »
 

NgNash

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Hi folks,

Original drawings for the cards are now available as rewards. Check them out ;)

 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2015, 06:09:12 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Hi folks,

Original drawings for the cards are now available as rewards. Check them out ;)

Do you know who's printing THESE?  Last update was eight days ago and you still hadn't named a printer for the deck yet.
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2015, 06:15:43 AM »
 

HankMan

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Hi folks,

Original drawings for the cards are now available as rewards. Check them out ;)

Do you know who's printing THESE?  Last update was eight days ago and you still hadn't named a printer for the deck yet.

I don't think this is gonna be mentioned any time soon...
Back for more
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2015, 06:36:56 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Hi folks,

Original drawings for the cards are now available as rewards. Check them out ;)

Do you know who's printing THESE?  Last update was eight days ago and you still hadn't named a printer for the deck yet.

I don't think this is gonna be mentioned any time soon...

Considering that they're a good distance from their goal, it may never get mentioned, 'cause it won't get printed.  It's actually not a bad deck artistically speaking, but the whole campaign has all the organization of a desert sandstorm.
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2015, 07:28:05 AM »
 

NgNash

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Guys,

I'm not sure how many times I need to say same thing - Legend asked for more then 10K just for printing this deck + shipment + they don't do golden edges!! Similar was with MPC - not offering what we wanted. Even regular decks with small quantities are too expansive to be made with these.

We'll deal this locally with printer named Tamilov as said before, with us overlooking the process. Actually to get all need - three printers will be included. Look at this almost as manually made, cause known companies for doing this - their prices are too high for this deck! They are good when you are creating 2-5000 decks and when you have established network for selling decks later.

Nash
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 08:29:33 AM by NgNash »
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2015, 06:21:12 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Guys,

I'm not sure how many times I need to say same thing - Legend asked for more then 10K just for printing this deck + shipment + they don't do golden edges!! Similar was with MPC - not offering what we wanted. Even regular decks with small quantities are too expansive to be made with these.

We'll deal this locally with printer named Tamilov as said before, with us overlooking the process. Actually to get all need - three printers will be included. Look at this almost as manually made, cause known companies for doing this - their prices are too high for this deck! They are good when you are creating 2-5000 decks and when you have established network for selling decks later.

Nash

What kind of press does Tamilov use?  It's probably a sheet fed press, but is it digital or offset or something else?

What type of stock?  Where is it sourced?  What is the finish?
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2015, 10:12:59 PM »
 

sprouts1115

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NgNash - I have to agree with Don.  This might be a another mountain for you, but you do seem to know marketing.  The goal is to make a film?  You have $8500 in pledges with a local printer who can also do gold gilded edges.  That is amazing.  Now if you were UUPC or Uusi, I might consider pledging.  It would not surprise me  if they came up with their own stock of paper.  That husband and wife team are known for there physical art in wooden card containers and gilded edges.  Why is UUPC being thrown around here so much?  >:(
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 09:33:56 AM by sprouts1115 »
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2015, 01:41:33 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Why is UUPC being thrown around here so much?  >:(

You're the one throwing it - you tell us!  I have no idea what "UUPC" is...

NgNash - there's a reason why those card companies charge what they charge.  They do high-quality work and they know playing cards.  The old expression "you get what you pay for" applies in spades when it comes to playing cards.  Go cheap, you'll have cheap cards that aren't even worth gilding.  Speaking of which - gilding isn't exactly a cheap process.  You would have known this if you checked it out before launch.  Quality gilding is even less cheap, and difficult to obtain - it's one of the reasons why even for the rare projects that offer gilded decks, they're only available in tiny quantities, usually 100 or less, and for large sums of cash.  Thinking you could get a quality gilded deck done for what you were asking AND make a profit on it might have been too much - and I can't see using this local press as being a step up from the other possible options.

It reminds me of this one movie theater owner I knew about.  He "upgraded" his single-screen movie theater, turning the balcony into a separate theater and decided to go with the most expensive brand of speakers on the market.  Not that it mattered, because he bought the cheapest speakers that company makes...  You can't make a quality deck with all those features for those prices and expect it to be top notch for the same reasons why I can't buy a Mercedes-Benz car on a Daewoo budget.
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2016, 01:02:31 PM »
 

Nemanja

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Hi all :)

I'm starting Black Friday sale for the Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards, deck for only 12$ or double for 20$! Gold foiled cards printed on high quality paper with black core and air cushion finish for durability and better handling.

Don't miss this ;)

https://www.etsy.com/listing/259382536/the-phantom-of-the-opera-playing-cards