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Redesigned SWARM deck in the works

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Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2015, 02:42:12 PM »
 

ecNate

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I'm half tempted to make this set of courts available within the creative commons. I'm tired of seeing Frankenstein versions of courts being used by everyone and their brother. I personally wouldn't mind giving these to any who would find good use for them.

That would be really great if you would do that.  Depending on your specific rights releases this may result in some really bad decks showing up on Kickstarter, but some good ones may come from it.  More importantly, new designers would see how things are done and could study it and use as a starting point or just background template while working on radically different art in a new layer without any fear of violating some copyright.
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2015, 09:26:50 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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This is really interesting for me, I haven't seen a custom casino deck (apart from the cherry deck) before, but maybe I just haven't looked.

Maybe you could try finishing the borders with just the hexagon shape - making for a new kind of border.

Love it so far!

Technically, all casino decks are custom - they only use name-branded decks in the first place.  Some are more custom than others - many use "casino versions" of standard backs, but there's also a lot of decks out there that are completely custom, start to finish, in all details.  And this isn't even a casino deck!  It's an off-the-shelf deck for a Chinese company that was embarrassed about the fact that they were cloning the Bee Diamond Back for so long.

The idea of ending the border with a hex shape is interesting - it would make for some unique gaps and a variable-width border.  But it's not the first time I've seen something like that before - I think the Japanese Friars' Club deck had a variable-width squared border, something with a bit of a Roman look to it.

I'm half tempted to make this set of courts available within the creative commons. I'm tired of seeing Frankenstein versions of courts being used by everyone and their brother. I personally wouldn't mind giving these to any who would find good use for them.

That would be really great if you would do that.  Depending on your specific rights releases this may result in some really bad decks showing up on Kickstarter, but some good ones may come from it.  More importantly, new designers would see how things are done and could study it and use as a starting point or just background template while working on radically different art in a new layer without any fear of violating some copyright.

Courts for an International Standard deck are not copyrightable, for the same reasons that the alphabet is not copyrightable.  Too much prior art in existence.  Spot cards aren't, either, except for the Ace of Spades, as nearly all decks have a unique Ace of Spades.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 09:28:59 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2015, 08:11:19 PM »
 

rjtomlinson1977

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3 out of 4 updated Jacks... keeping with standard look with some modifications. For example, I didn't think the Jack of Diamond needed a flower poking out of his chest for no apparent reason so I got rid of it.
With this project I'm not reinventing the wheel.. I'm just giving it a good cleaning and pumping it up with some fresh air.
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2015, 09:48:02 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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3 out of 4 updated Jacks... keeping with standard look with some modifications. For example, I didn't think the Jack of Diamond needed a flower poking out of his chest for no apparent reason so I got rid of it.
With this project I'm not reinventing the wheel.. I'm just giving it a good cleaning and pumping it up with some fresh air.

Don't go too far with those tweaks.  Some poker players use them for identifying wild cards.  "Man with the ax," "One-eyed jack," etc.  Things like the flower Jack are part of what they look for.

It's fine to go totally new with a custom deck - but you're making a standard deck, not a custom one.
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Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2015, 11:06:58 PM »
 

rjtomlinson1977

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So should I add the flower back?
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2015, 11:34:34 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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So should I add the flower back?

I would recommend it, yes.  Standard decks have less flexibility for changes - remember, a lot of poker players will use this deck and expect all the same graphical features here that are in any pack of Bicycles, Bees, Hoyles, Waddington's, Copags, etc.

The following should remain unchanged:
- any facial hair on the men
- hair color
- items held
- direction facing
- whether seen in portrait (two eyes visible) or profile (one eye visible)

Crown styles in generally should be about the same.

Clothing you have some flexibility on - but there's an exception.  The Queen of Spades appears to be holding something in her hand - it looks like a piece of her garment folded over, a section in white with a series of symbols on it.  Some magicians use this as a reveal - the symbols look a little like spades, and some (cough, DAVIDBLAINE, cough) even alter the symbols to look more like spades and change the amount of the symbols on the "card" she's holding.  Perish the thought that some dingbat playing poker with his buddies declared "queen holding a card" as wild...though I will grant that this queen is better known as either "Lady Death" (because of spades being associated with death) or "the Bedpost Queen" (her scepter in the other hand resembles a bedpost).  It's more of a concession to magicians than to poker players.

In fact...if you were subtle about it...you could conceal a number of card reveals in the garments of the courts, making this a deck magicians might seek out, since it would be a bonus feature for performances.
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Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2015, 05:49:20 AM »
 

Worst Bower

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Agree with Don. This is a standard deck and it's the staple deck of a client, you can't mess with courts like a KS project. Card historians have noted the strong traditionalism people attach to their cards and how designs change very slowly through the centuries. It basically boils down to these two reasons:

1. Gamblers are notoriously superstitious (they have to be, just ask any mathematician). They will blame any loss on any changes to their cards. Some gamblers have favorite decks down to the brand, number, year of production, etc. Faro players, for example, still played with cards that had sharp edges, single faces, no corner indices, decades after everyone else moved on.

2. People play with cards that their family or friends play with or what they've seen on TV. They don't want to be the odd one out. They won't play bridge with grandma with an erotic deck of course. Kids of a certain age get precocious and want to play with cards that adults have, they've started to think their Disney or Marvel heroes deck are too childish. Then they grow up with the familiar courts and it becomes culturally ingrained.

When it comes to club decks or house decks, there's only so much you can do. Stick to Don's suggestions. People pay more attention to faces and items than clothing, since they're more abstract and it blurs in their memories. I can recall the suicide king's face but if you swap his belts or coat with another, I probably won't notice.
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2015, 06:51:04 PM »
 

rjtomlinson1977

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Here's the updated Jack with his flower back. Also here's a work in progress view of the Jack of Clubs.
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2015, 11:33:16 PM »
 

Rob Wright

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Since the whole purpose of RT redesigning these cards is to get away from looking like Bee's, I would think he would not want to use the "fade-to-white" Stinger-style border?
Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died.

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Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2015, 01:31:16 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Here's the updated Jack with his flower back. Also here's a work in progress view of the Jack of Clubs.

Where is the flower?  Are my glasses that bad?  I hope not, I just got them...  :))

Since the whole purpose of RT redesigning these cards is to get away from looking like Bee's, I would think he would not want to use the "fade-to-white" Stinger-style border?

Because that fade-to-white border is used exclusively by USPC in a) casino decks and b) Theory11's Stingers, a long sold-out design (although it's a little known fact that T11 has been reprinting them and others, if not their entire catalog, for wholesale to retailers).  They don't allow other non-casino decks to have it, for whatever reason - either that or no one's asked to use it.  Additionally, while you want the new design to be original and unique, you don't want to stray too far from the classic design.  In China, the real deal, the counterfeits and the lookalikes are the market leaders for a reason: people buy them.  So the new design should be made new enough to be unique but similar enough to not be entirely alien to the core customer base.

Zenneth Kok's first custom deck design was a pair of black-and-white reprints of the Bicycle New Fan Back, because it's a gorgeous deck.  His second custom deck design was a variant of the Bee Diamond Backs because of the market familiarity - he performs predominantly in Asia and Pacifica.  There's a really long story about why he never made another version or printing of that deck - suffice it to say that Mr. Kok no longer deals with USPC, to the best of my knowledge, and it's been a few years since he's released a USPC deck.  USPC goes to great lengths to protect the Bee Diamond Back design in that market - unlike decks made for sale in the US, the Chinese market version has holograms etched into the cellophane as a mark of authenticity!  It looks REALLY cool, and it's a shame they don't use such features on their domestic decks - they'd be a hit.  But the point is, yes, be new and original, but don't be so new and original that people who love the classic design will reject the new one in favor of the classic one.  The honeycomb concept is actually brilliant, as it continues the "bee" theme without being a "Bee" registered trademark or copyrighted design.
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Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2015, 06:46:32 PM »
 

rjtomlinson1977

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Here's the Queen of Spades. As of right now, I'm thinking of modified hairdos for the Queens.... unless people object.
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2015, 01:26:50 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Here's the Queen of Spades. As of right now, I'm thinking of modified hairdos for the Queens.... unless people object.

Modify the style - but not the color.  In other words, keep the brunettes brown-haired, etc.  But a different hairstyle would be refreshing.
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Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2015, 10:48:58 PM »
 

NineLives

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Here's the Queen of Spades. As of right now, I'm thinking of modified hairdos for the Queens.... unless people object.

I really like how your design is allowing elements in the courts' clothing (patterns) to stand out more and 'shine' :) I'm absolutely no expert on what is acceptable in terms of 'modifying' the original, though if you have freedom with things like hairstyles, maybe you could give the Queen of Spades a more feminine jawline (i.e. slightly pointed chin)? ... Her eyes are looking good and I think your use of the curling wand has done wonders for her hair :)

cheers
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2015, 07:47:35 PM »
 

rjtomlinson1977

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Here's a preview link for the project. It's not all the way done... but I wanted to get some feedback.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2060803491/1845598135?token=1de02fa0
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2015, 10:44:16 PM »
 

Mark

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Cleaning up the mascara from the originals looks really good. Reasonable shipping costs are going to be critical at this price point. A tier with 6 decks might be useful. What quality stock are you looking to use from this printer?
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2015, 12:46:06 AM »
 

rjtomlinson1977

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Yeah... I'll probably add a few more tiers before launching. They use 310gsm German black core paper. The finish is something we've been working on. With my Gettysburg deck, the handling was good but it could've been better. With my Bradford county deck they made a few adjustments and got the finish perfect. They fan and shuffle really good. USPCC and EPCC still is slightly better but in my opinion USPCC can be too slippery.
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2015, 02:37:05 AM »
 

rjtomlinson1977

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Please feel free to leave comments and/or suggestions on the KS project page. WJ Printing is looking for feedback
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2015, 04:29:54 AM »
 

The London magician

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For me, at least, I am much more likely to back a project with a video. Maybe do some magic or cardistry or set up a kind of casino scene just to showcase the cards. Also, make sure the video (if you chose to make one) is good quality; there is nothing more annoying than watching a bad video with 'crackly' sound. You could also get a video of the factory, but probably not the one from their website.

Good luck!
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2015, 10:04:19 AM »
 

rjtomlinson1977

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I wish I knew someone that could handle cards and make a video. But I did get some video clips form the factory... so I'll get those posted this morning on the page.
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2015, 02:55:52 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Here's a preview link for the project. It's not all the way done... but I wanted to get some feedback.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2060803491/1845598135?token=1de02fa0

I looked it over and it looks great.  I would, however, make the fade-to-white border just a little deeper.  The card's edge should be 100% white and remain white for a short distance into the center before the fade.  With yours, the pattern is still visible at the die line, so it's more of a "fade to about 25% opaque"...

Lighten the blue card back's shade a little - it looks nearly black.  You could consider offering black as a stretch goal.

The pricing is phenomenally good - I hope the quality isn't significantly lower.  Have they sent you stock samples?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 02:58:24 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2015, 06:33:12 AM »
 

rjtomlinson1977

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Yes, I'll update the fade effect and lower the darkness of the blue. I think that will help too. Yes, I've gotten samples from them and also had a few decks printed in the last couple months. The first deck I printed with them was Gettysburg. The finish and handling were okay but not as good as I wanted. The cellophane was also loose. So, I gave them the feedback from my backers and with the next deck they did for me they made adjustments.The next deck, which was a deck of history cards based on my local community of Bradford County, turned out amazing. The cellophane was nice and tight. It was identical to what USPCC looks like. The finish and handling was nearly perfect. The only negative feedback I heard was they were slightly stiff. They're slippery but not as much as USPCC (which for me is a good thing because I think USPCC is a little too sliippery).
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2015, 11:27:50 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Yes, I'll update the fade effect and lower the darkness of the blue. I think that will help too. Yes, I've gotten samples from them and also had a few decks printed in the last couple months. The first deck I printed with them was Gettysburg. The finish and handling were okay but not as good as I wanted. The cellophane was also loose. So, I gave them the feedback from my backers and with the next deck they did for me they made adjustments.The next deck, which was a deck of history cards based on my local community of Bradford County, turned out amazing. The cellophane was nice and tight. It was identical to what USPCC looks like. The finish and handling was nearly perfect. The only negative feedback I heard was they were slightly stiff. They're slippery but not as much as USPCC (which for me is a good thing because I think USPCC is a little too sliippery).

Stiff is not necessarily bad - casino-grade cards are rather stiff.  It just takes some breaking in and some getting used to, and not everyone has the time or the preference.

USPC's decks are as slick as they are because all their custom work has "Magic Finish" on it - an extra-slick coating.  It's the default coating for custom decks.

I may want to contact you soon about an article for CARD CULTURE Magazine about your experience with creating this project.  It's rather unique how this whole thing developed.
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Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2015, 08:27:57 AM »
 

rjtomlinson1977

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Feel free to contact me anytime. If you want you can e-mail me at rjtomlinson@tomlinsoncards.com
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2015, 11:36:07 AM »
 

NineLives

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Congratulations on going live :)
I haven't been here that long, so yours is one of the first decks I've followed from the design stage to live on KS - looking good!

cheers
 

Re: Redesigned SWARM deck in the works
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2015, 01:00:47 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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RJ, when you go live, it's customary - not to mention good sales practice - to post your link!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2060803491/swarm-playing-cards
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