Soft, Flexible, & Readily Available

[MattKelly]

Hello!

Long time lurker, first time poster here. I'm looking to buy cards in bulk that share the same soft and flexible feel of the Erdnase Expert at the Card Table and T11 Bee Stinger decks. To this date, the only other deck I've handled that comes close is the T11 Medallions. I'm also trying to stay away from ridiculous designs as I'll be using them for professional work - so I need something clean (standard faces) and with a white border (no border-less designs!). It'd also be nice if they were less than $5-ish per deck, as I would really like to buy in bulk (the cards will be bent, torn, and signed on a regular basis). I know this may sound like a rather picky set of requirements, and honestly something like this may not exist right now, because I have yet to find anything of the sort! Standard bikes are far too stiff for my liking, and despite living in NYC, I can't find Tally Ho's anywhere in person. I used to use Tally Ho Circle Backs exclusively when they were still being printed in Cincinnati, but haven't handled a deck of Tally's since then, so I don't know how the current production runs compare. Even still, Q1 Cincinatti Tally's never had that same soft and flexible feel that the Erdnase EATCT had. If anyone has any suggestions for me I'd love to hear it - thanks so much in advance!

All the best,
Matt

P.S. I most recently bought the T11 Aristocrats in bulk, hoping that they would have that Erdnase EATCT feel, but sadly they were far stiffer...

[chas0039]

I have found that Daniel Madison cards are pretty flimsy and these:

http://www.ellusionist.com/red-bordered-dealers-by-daniel-madison.html

or this:

http://www.ellusionist.com/swe-deck.html

They have the border and the price in bulk.  Others may chip in on the feel as some of his decks may be better for what you want than others.  He offers a few with borders.

[MattKelly]

I have found that Daniel Madison cards are pretty flimsy and these:

http://www.ellusionist.com/red-bordered-dealers-by-daniel-madison.html

or this:

http://www.ellusionist.com/swe-deck.html

Have the border and the price in bulk.  Others may chip in on the feel as some of his decks may be better for what you want than others.  He offers a few with borders.

Thanks so much for the reply! I too have heard some of Daniel Madison's cards have that sort of feel to them, but for some reason (not quite sure why) the non-standard faces of his cards really put me off...

[Don Boyer]

Hello!

Long time lurker, first time poster here. I'm looking to buy cards in bulk that share the same soft and flexible feel of the Erdnase Expert at the Card Table and T11 Bee Stinger decks. To this date, the only other deck I've handled that comes close is the T11 Medallions. I'm also trying to stay away from ridiculous designs as I'll be using them for professional work - so I need something clean (standard faces) and with a white border (no border-less designs!). It'd also be nice if they were less than $5-ish per deck, as I would really like to buy in bulk (the cards will be bent, torn, and signed on a regular basis). I know this may sound like a rather picky set of requirements, and honestly something like this may not exist right now, because I have yet to find anything of the sort! Standard bikes are far too stiff for my liking, and despite living in NYC, I can't find Tally Ho's anywhere in person. I used to use Tally Ho Circle Backs exclusively when they were still being printed in Cincinnati, but haven't handled a deck of Tally's since then, so I don't know how the current production runs compare. Even still, Q1 Cincinatti Tally's never had that same soft and flexible feel that the Erdnase EATCT had. If anyone has any suggestions for me I'd love to hear it - thanks so much in advance!

All the best,
Matt

P.S. I most recently bought the T11 Aristocrats in bulk, hoping that they would have that Erdnase EATCT feel, but sadly they were far stiffer...

Bee Stingers and Aristocrats were made with the same stock.  The Aristocrats aren't "T11 Aristocrats" - T11 sells them, but didn't commission them.  It was a reprinting ordered by USPC, not a third party.  Even late Tally Ho decks are the same stock, but a slightly stiffer variant of it.

I can name custom deck after custom deck for your, but there's a problem - they're custom decks, and keeping them on hand will cost you a pretty penny.  Even a cheap custom deck will be around $5 a pack, while Bicycles in bulk will only cost just over a buck a pack and off the shelf of an expensive NY pharmacy are still less expensive by about 50-75¢.  Stick with off-the-shelf standards and your wallet will thank you.

You mentioned Theory11 - you know they still sell Tally Ho in Circle and Fan backs for less than I've ever found them at a New York store.  I was getting mine from a local fruit-and-veggie market near my old apartment in Queens for $3 a pack while T11 charges less than $2.25 in bulk.  Combine that with Kevin Reylek's great Tally Ho gaff deck and you're good to go.

If you REALLY need to go cheaper but decent, try Streamlines.  The stock is the same as Bicycles, but it's not embossed - they're slightly stiffer while still being fairly soft.  (Compare any stock in embossed and unembossed versions, the embossed paper will always be less stiff because the embossing process breaks the surface of the paper itself.)  They have Arrco standard faces and can be found for as little as $1 a pack - BUT make sure you avoid the Chinese-made ones.  They part of USPC's regular product line (meaning wholesalers will carry them), have been printed at least once since 2012 at the Erlanger plant and are of surprisingly good quality for such a cheap deck.

Any time you want decks in bulk, check out Kardwell.  They're a Long Island-based cards/gambling wholesaler that also does retail business.  Buy in bulk, save money, but still shop around, because not all of their retail prices are bargains.

Now if you still want custom, I can recommend some custom models...

[MattKelly]

Hello!

Long time lurker, first time poster here. I'm looking to buy cards in bulk that share the same soft and flexible feel of the Erdnase Expert at the Card Table and T11 Bee Stinger decks. To this date, the only other deck I've handled that comes close is the T11 Medallions. I'm also trying to stay away from ridiculous designs as I'll be using them for professional work - so I need something clean (standard faces) and with a white border (no border-less designs!). It'd also be nice if they were less than $5-ish per deck, as I would really like to buy in bulk (the cards will be bent, torn, and signed on a regular basis). I know this may sound like a rather picky set of requirements, and honestly something like this may not exist right now, because I have yet to find anything of the sort! Standard bikes are far too stiff for my liking, and despite living in NYC, I can't find Tally Ho's anywhere in person. I used to use Tally Ho Circle Backs exclusively when they were still being printed in Cincinnati, but haven't handled a deck of Tally's since then, so I don't know how the current production runs compare. Even still, Q1 Cincinatti Tally's never had that same soft and flexible feel that the Erdnase EATCT had. If anyone has any suggestions for me I'd love to hear it - thanks so much in advance!

All the best,
Matt

P.S. I most recently bought the T11 Aristocrats in bulk, hoping that they would have that Erdnase EATCT feel, but sadly they were far stiffer...

Bee Stingers and Aristocrats were made with the same stock.  The Aristocrats aren't "T11 Aristocrats" - T11 sells them, but didn't commission them.  It was a reprinting ordered by USPC, not a third party.  Even late Tally Ho decks are the same stock, but a slightly stiffer variant of it.

I can name custom deck after custom deck for your, but there's a problem - they're custom decks, and keeping them on hand will cost you a pretty penny.  Even a cheap custom deck will be around $5 a pack, while Bicycles in bulk will only cost just over a buck a pack and off the shelf of an expensive NY pharmacy are still less expensive by about 50-75¢.  Stick with off-the-shelf standards and your wallet will thank you.

You mentioned Theory11 - you know they still sell Tally Ho in Circle and Fan backs for less than I've ever found them at a New York store.  I was getting mine from a local fruit-and-veggie market near my old apartment in Queens for $3 a pack while T11 charges less than $2.25 in bulk.  Combine that with Kevin Reylek's great Tally Ho gaff deck and you're good to go.

If you REALLY need to go cheaper but decent, try Streamlines.  The stock is the same as Bicycles, but it's not embossed - they're slightly stiffer while still being fairly soft.  (Compare any stock in embossed and unembossed versions, the embossed paper will always be less stiff because the embossing process breaks the surface of the paper itself.)  They have Arrco standard faces and can be found for as little as $1 a pack - BUT make sure you avoid the Chinese-made ones.  They part of USPC's regular product line (meaning wholesalers will carry them), have been printed at least once since 2012 at the Erlanger plant and are of surprisingly good quality for such a cheap deck.

Any time you want decks in bulk, check out Kardwell.  They're a Long Island-based cards/gambling wholesaler that also does retail business.  Buy in bulk, save money, but still shop around, because not all of their retail prices are bargains.

Now if you still want custom, I can recommend some custom models...

Hey, Don! Thanks for getting back to me. We actually spoke on Facebook before and had quite a lengthy conversation (not sure if you remember me, but I was the NYU Film major). I really appreciate you clearing some of that up for me! I do agree that custom decks are probably not the way to go, so I'm going to cross those off the list for now. As far as the Aristocrats are concerned, I definitely still have some confusion on this topic. I know they claim to have the same stock as the T11 Stingers, but I am incredibly confident that there is something drastically different about these two. The Stingers felt identical to the Erdnase EATCT decks (in terms of handling). And those EATCT decks are my gold standard for what I would love my cards to feel like. But man, those Aristocrats are just WAY stiffer than either of those two decks. I certainly lack the knowledge that you have when it comes to the facts and history of all this (and I love learning from you!) but I've performed some of the most intensive sleights possible with cards for over ten years now and I definitely can vouch for the fact that these Aristocrats lack the softness and flexibility those EATCT decks had. Now, maybe there is no non-custom deck in production that feels anything close to the EATCT decks, but boy oh boy do I want to find the runner up. It's definitely not Bicycle (for me, Bikes feel stiffer than the Aristocrats) so maybe it's Tally's... but like I said I haven't used Tally's since I ordered some Q1 Cincinnati's in bulk, years ago. How do the current production runs compare? As far as the gaffs go - the only gaff I'm really lacking if I go with Tally's is an entire deck of standard circle backs (blue) with entirely blank faces. Haven't been able to find those anywhere, unfortunately.

Thanks again for your words of wisdom - I really appreciate your help!

All the best,
Matt

[Don Boyer]

Welcome to the forum, then, Matt!

Believe it or not, there's a lot of factors that can make a stock feel different, not the least of which being the humidity in the factory on the day the paper was pressed into pasteboard or on the day the paper was cut into sheets or the day it was printed.  Rolls of paper are stored in climate-controlled storage units, but it's not like the entire factory is hermetically sealed.  Even within a single brand you'll spot differences in the paper.  It's the nature of the beast.

Tally Ho is probably the way to go.  Sounds like the best deck that's commonly available and suits your needs.  Modern TH decks are OK, but be on the lookout for color inconsistencies - I had some from a batch made in 2012 that had card backs of different shades of the same color in the same deck.  (And Circle Backs still have the subtle one-way mark that appears to have been accidentally added a few decades ago!)

The gaff you want is available from the Kevin Reylek deck I mentioned - it's all common blank facers and double-backers, utilizing the two colors and two back designs, plus some Bicycles for people wanting to mix decks in their tricks or fake having a Bicycle deck but "change" it to a TH, etc.

You can MAKE your own blank facers, you know...  Kevin teaches dry splitting and regluing on his video for "Cannibal" and you can buy a pack of TH and a pack of double blanks to make all the TH blank facers you want.

For a change of pace, there's still Black TH decks available in both backs from magic shops.  They're perhaps $5 a pack, but they come with identical jokers, a blank facer and a double-backer.  I have no idea who commissioned them or how many were made, but it was printed in Cincinnati a handful of years before the move to Erlanger.

[MattKelly]

Welcome to the forum, then, Matt!

Believe it or not, there's a lot of factors that can make a stock feel different, not the least of which being the humidity in the factory on the day the paper was pressed into pasteboard or on the day the paper was cut into sheets or the day it was printed.  Rolls of paper are stored in climate-controlled storage units, but it's not like the entire factory is hermetically sealed.  Even within a single brand you'll spot differences in the paper.  It's the nature of the beast.

Tally Ho is probably the way to go.  Sounds like the best deck that's commonly available and suits your needs.  Modern TH decks are OK, but be on the lookout for color inconsistencies - I had some from a batch made in 2012 that had card backs of different shades of the same color in the same deck.  (And Circle Backs still have the subtle one-way mark that appears to have been accidentally added a few decades ago!)

The gaff you want is available from the Kevin Reylek deck I mentioned - it's all common blank facers and double-backers, utilizing the two colors and two back designs, plus some Bicycles for people wanting to mix decks in their tricks or fake having a Bicycle deck but "change" it to a TH, etc.

You can MAKE your own blank facers, you know...  Kevin teaches dry splitting and regluing on his video for "Cannibal" and you can buy a pack of TH and a pack of double blanks to make all the TH blank facers you want.

For a change of pace, there's still Black TH decks available in both backs from magic shops.  They're perhaps $5 a pack, but they come with identical jokers, a blank facer and a double-backer.  I have no idea who commissioned them or how many were made, but it was printed in Cincinnati a handful of years before the move to Erlanger.

Thanks again for the follow up, Don. Yeah, I think I'm going to go with Tally's then. I know Kevin's deck has some blank faces in it - but I'd need a deck of 52 blank faced circle backs (and idk how many come in one gaffed deck of his). I could make my own, like you said, but I just don't think I'd go that route to be honest (whether it's out of laziness or fear I'm just not sure, haha). Before I order, have you happened to hear of anything regarding buying Tally Ho's from T11 versus pokerstud52 on eBay? He has the best prices I can find for circle back blue tally's right now, but I don't know how recent the cards are (I know they're KY, though - as are T11...)

Thanks again!

[chas0039]

I have purchased a lot from pokerstud and other than being very slow on emails, I have found him to be reliable.

[Don Boyer]

Both pokerstud52 and Theory11 are reliable.  But...  If you approach pokerstud52 by email and tell him you're from the forum, he might give you the old 10% discount he was giving members here.  Just use eBay to browse but place your order with him via email.  You save him eBay fees and he passes the savings to you.  He also has an account here, though he doesn't post much for some time now.

[ksi]

Hi, I am new to the forum and I am also new in collecting cards.

Matt, have you ever tried the Richard Turner's Gold Seal Bike?  They are said to be Bee stock.  And my feeling is they are quite soft.  A bit softer than normal bikes.
And I have done some measurement on it immediately out of the box.  The 52 cards thickness is about 15.3mm and weight is about 86.8g.  Sadly I don't have Bee Stinger / EATCT and cannot make the comparison.  The decks I received are made in the old OHIO factory so you might imagine the deck is feeling something like OHIO Bee.  Price is not high and it seems there are still enough stock for your to get in bulk.

Another soft deck I came across is the Bicycle Tactical Field.  The one I opened is on Black back.  The 52 cards thickness is about 14.5mm and weight is about 86.4g.  This supposed to be a durable deck.  But unexpectedly it seems to be relatively thin and soft.  And I do believe it is durable.  I played with it almost everyday (15 mins per day) for almost a month and it still looks like brand new.  However, this deck can't fan.  I don't recommend this deck but it is really quite soft and I think it is interesting to share.

[MattKelly]

I have purchased a lot from pokerstud and other than being very slow on emails, I have found him to be reliable.

Both pokerstud52 and Theory11 are reliable.  But...  If you approach pokerstud52 by email and tell him you're from the forum, he might give you the old 10% discount he was giving members here.  Just use eBay to browse but place your order with him via email.  You save him eBay fees and he passes the savings to you.  He also has an account here, though he doesn't post much for some time now.

Thanks, guys! I too have bought from pokerstud for many years, but always through eBay. Do you happen to know his e-mail address, so that I can pay him directly? I would really appreciate it! Thanks again.

[MattKelly]

Hi, I am new to the forum and I am also new in collecting cards.

Matt, have you ever tried the Richard Turner's Gold Seal Bike?  They are said to be Bee stock.  And my feeling is they are quite soft.  A bit softer than normal bikes.
And I have done some measurement on it immediately out of the box.  The 52 cards thickness is about 15.3mm and weight is about 86.8g.  Sadly I don't have Bee Stinger / EATCT and cannot make the comparison.  The decks I received are made in the old OHIO factory so you might imagine the deck is feeling something like OHIO Bee.  Price is not high and it seems there are still enough stock for your to get in bulk.

Another soft deck I came across is the Bicycle Tactical Field.  The one I opened is on Black back.  The 52 cards thickness is about 14.5mm and weight is about 86.4g.  This supposed to be a durable deck.  But unexpectedly it seems to be relatively thin and soft.  And I do believe it is durable.  I played with it almost everyday (15 mins per day) for almost a month and it still looks like brand new.  However, this deck can't fan.  I don't recommend this deck but it is really quite soft and I think it is interesting to share.

Hey, thanks for the feedback! Yes, I actually have used Richard Turner's Gold Seal Bikes. While I definitely prefer them to standard Bikes, they still feel far too stiff/thick to me (at least in comparison to the EATCT decks). Honestly, these T11 Medallions I'm using now come really close to the Erdnase decks...

[Don Boyer]

I have purchased a lot from pokerstud and other than being very slow on emails, I have found him to be reliable.

Both pokerstud52 and Theory11 are reliable.  But...  If you approach pokerstud52 by email and tell him you're from the forum, he might give you the old 10% discount he was giving members here.  Just use eBay to browse but place your order with him via email.  You save him eBay fees and he passes the savings to you.  He also has an account here, though he doesn't post much for some time now.

Thanks, guys! I too have bought from pokerstud for many years, but always through eBay. Do you happen to know his e-mail address, so that I can pay him directly? I would really appreciate it! Thanks again.

Like I said, he has an account here - and all accounts have a contact email address in the profile page.  Contact him first to inquire if he's still offering the discount, then place the order.

[MattKelly]

then place the order.

So I just received two bricks of blue Tally Ho Circle Backs and unfortunately I'm super disappointed! What happened to the quality of these cards since I used them years ago... man, they are stiff as a board and clump so easily. I feel like there isn't a single mass produced deck that is soft and flexible these days. Honestly, I don't know what to do short of dishing out lots of $ for more limited decks (and that's such a pain when I go through decks so consistently). I wish I could just suck it up and use the standard Bikes/Tally's USPCC puts out these days, but the sleights I perform are just too intricate for these stiff cards...

[Don Boyer]

then place the order.

So I just received two bricks of blue Tally Ho Circle Backs and unfortunately I'm super disappointed! What happened to the quality of these cards since I used them years ago... man, they are stiff as a board and clump so easily. I feel like there isn't a single mass produced deck that is soft and flexible these days. Honestly, I don't know what to do short of dishing out lots of $ for more limited decks (and that's such a pain when I go through decks so consistently). I wish I could just suck it up and use the standard Bikes/Tally's USPCC puts out these days, but the sleights I perform are just too intricate for these stiff cards...

All right, it sounds like you need to try a custom deck, but you need to try something softer and less likely to clump.  I could say try using NOC decks.  Of all the custom decks you're going to find, the basic colors of the NOC deck are the least expensive - they run $5 a pack.  You can also try perhaps the Crown decks.  Crown decks will be like Bikes in firmness, but they have the added advantage of (probably) being "Magic Finish" coated as well, which might at least aid against clumping.  Those are among the least-expensive custom deck options you're going to find.

And before you give up all hope on standard decks, try a few that are standard but less common - Streamline (get US- or Spanish-made only; new stock is US-made), Aviator, Hoyle, even Play-Right from Walgreens.  You clearly need a deck that's in current production.

Short of all that, if you REALLY want to get a deck that's literally built to your specs, look in getting a print run of custom decks for yourself - pick a simple design with a standard face, find a good printer and just have them made in bulk for you.  You'll spend about what you'd spend for off-the-shelf decks on a per-deck basis, though you'll probably have to print somewhere in the ballpark of 2,000-3,000 decks to get that per-deck price.  But for somewhere in the ballpark of $4,000-$10,000, depending on the exact specs and print run size you end up with, you'll have a lifetime supply or close to it of a deck made precisely the way you want it - and if others want it that way as well, you can sell some to help defray the cost of the print run, or if they're popular enough and you can charge the right price, pay for it altogether.

[MattKelly]

then place the order.

So I just received two bricks of blue Tally Ho Circle Backs and unfortunately I'm super disappointed! What happened to the quality of these cards since I used them years ago... man, they are stiff as a board and clump so easily. I feel like there isn't a single mass produced deck that is soft and flexible these days. Honestly, I don't know what to do short of dishing out lots of $ for more limited decks (and that's such a pain when I go through decks so consistently). I wish I could just suck it up and use the standard Bikes/Tally's USPCC puts out these days, but the sleights I perform are just too intricate for these stiff cards...

All right, it sounds like you need to try a custom deck, but you need to try something softer and less likely to clump.  I could say try using NOC decks.  Of all the custom decks you're going to find, the basic colors of the NOC deck are the least expensive - they run $5 a pack.  You can also try perhaps the Crown decks.  Crown decks will be like Bikes in firmness, but they have the added advantage of (probably) being "Magic Finish" coated as well, which might at least aid against clumping.  Those are among the least-expensive custom deck options you're going to find.

And before you give up all hope on standard decks, try a few that are standard but less common - Streamline (get US- or Spanish-made only; new stock is US-made), Aviator, Hoyle, even Play-Right from Walgreens.  You clearly need a deck that's in current production.

Short of all that, if you REALLY want to get a deck that's literally built to your specs, look in getting a print run of custom decks for yourself - pick a simple design with a standard face, find a good printer and just have them made in bulk for you.  You'll spend about what you'd spend for off-the-shelf decks on a per-deck basis, though you'll probably have to print somewhere in the ballpark of 2,000-3,000 decks to get that per-deck price.  But for somewhere in the ballpark of $4,000-$10,000, depending on the exact specs and print run size you end up with, you'll have a lifetime supply or close to it of a deck made precisely the way you want it - and if others want it that way as well, you can sell some to help defray the cost of the print run, or if they're popular enough and you can charge the right price, pay for it altogether.

Thanks again, Don. I had been looking at the NOC decks for a few months now actually. How soft/flexible are they, though? I'm actually in shock at how poor these Tally's are. Beyond that, the only other option I can see is just buying Richard Turner Golds in bulk. I mean, I truthfully still find them too thick/stiff, but at least they're good enough (not preferred, but manageable).

[Don Boyer]

Thanks again, Don. I had been looking at the NOC decks for a few months now actually. How soft/flexible are they, though? I'm actually in shock at how poor these Tally's are. Beyond that, the only other option I can see is just buying Richard Turner Golds in bulk. I mean, I truthfully still find them too thick/stiff, but at least they're good enough (not preferred, but manageable).

NOCs are on Bicycle stock but they have Magic Finish.  Plain and simple.  Correction: they WERE on Bicycle stock for the first two versions and I think they're on Master or Classic stock from Expert PCC now.  No Magic Finish.

You might be looking for a Holy Grail that won't exist until you make it yourself.

[MattKelly]

You might be looking for a Holy Grail that won't exist until you make it yourself.

I think it's less a matter of it existing and more a matter of if it's still in production! There are so many decks here on my table right now that I love the handling of. To name a few: Dan and Dave Denim, Cincinnati Arrcos, Cincinnati Tallys, some very old and very soft new fan backs, my favorite the Erdnase EATCT decks, and lastly the only deck that I know of that is currently readily available and handles similarly, the T11 Medallions. But you're right, a deck that feels like this, doesn't look as "custom" as the Medallions of today, and is readily available in mass production - that may very well be a holy grail. I'm hoping the NOC cards feel similarly to the decks I've listed above. If not, I'm just going to resell these KY Tallys and invest in Richard Turner Golds. Like I said before, definitely not the preferred option, but at least I find them manageable!

[Don Boyer]

You might be looking for a Holy Grail that won't exist until you make it yourself.

I think it's less a matter of it existing and more a matter of if it's still in production! There are so many decks here on my table right now that I love the handling of. To name a few: Dan and Dave Denim, Cincinnati Arrcos, Cincinnati Tallys, some very old and very soft new fan backs, my favorite the Erdnase EATCT decks, and lastly the only deck that I know of that is currently readily available and handles similarly, the T11 Medallions. But you're right, a deck that feels like this, doesn't look as "custom" as the Medallions of today, and is readily available in mass production - that may very well be a holy grail. I'm hoping the NOC cards feel similarly to the decks I've listed above. If not, I'm just going to resell these KY Tallys and invest in Richard Turner Golds. Like I said before, definitely not the preferred option, but at least I find them manageable!

You could do worse than Turner Golds, that's for sure.  They're still cheap compared to most custom decks, still readily available (how many of the blasted things did he print?) and you have a zillion matching gaffs on the market.  Black Tally Ho decks are also a good option - Cincinnati-made and still available.

Try to find some American-made Streamlines, though.  You might like them better and they're truly cheap.  I have this test I like to do sometimes - the "stone desk test."  I play cards during slack time at work, and the desk I use is made of a synthetic stone that's almost always colder than the surrounding air.  In the winter, it can be downright frigid.  If I leave a deck sitting on that desk out of the tuck box, in most cases it will eventually chill down enough that the top cards will warp.  Even the best quality cards warped, at least the top card if none other, and the worst cards warped a lot.  I left a pack of KY-made Streamlines on the deck - flat as a ironed-out pancake.