Black Diamond Tally-Ho [KS]

[Justin O.]

Jackson is following up his Scarlett and Emerald decks with the upcoming Black Diamond Tally-Ho. (Wasn't someone just looking for fresh off the press Tally-Hos in a post last week?)

Jackson confirmed he will be continuing the Legacy editions into this version.

We will see it hit Kickstarter at 1000PST on 11/14.

[Don Boyer]

Jackson is following up his Scarlett and Emerald decks with the upcoming Black Diamond Tally-Ho. (Wasn't someone just looking for fresh off the press Tally-Hos in a post last week?)

Jackson confirmed he will be continuing the Legacy editions into this version.

We will see it hit Kickstarter at 1000PST on 11/14.

Yeah, he was looking for standard Tally Ho decks, like he could use up and buy cheaply for his magic act...  These wouldn't exactly fit the bill!

10:00 AM PST = 18:00 UTC on the same day.

[PrincessTrouble]

Note that these will get the Bicycle MetalLuxe treatment (silver) on the card backs.

[Justin O.]

Hoping to see the Legacy box use Ebony as the accent wood. 

[Fess]

Hoping to see the Legacy box use Ebony as the accent wood.

It's slated for aluminium.

[Don Boyer]

Hoping to see the Legacy box use Ebony as the accent wood.

It's slated for aluminium.

Aluminum as the accent wood?  Must be one helluva tree... 

I saw the MetalLuxe cards at the club's convention last month - they were displaying them for people to check out at the USPC table.  This might well be the first project using it that isn't in-house.  It's SUPER-SHINY, seriously.  Something about the process used requires that the foil cover a large portion of the card back - could be how they adhere it to the card back, I don't know.

[Jay Losa]

I like how he doesn't even try anymore.

Here's the back design, here's one court card, here are some cases, and let's just do 15 days.

Oh and don't even bother bother going to the campaign, they all sold out in seconds.

[Don Boyer]

Damn...there's not a single reward left.  How unrewarding. 

Well, here's the KS, for people who want to stare at it for a while and drool on their monitors.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1722808047/black-diamond-tally-ho-playing-cards-by-jackson-ro?ref=nav_search

Reminds me of this year's 52+J convention.  Jackson had a table full of decks - and nearly all of them weren't for sale, just for show!  People were constantly walking up to him, asking to buy them.  I'm not sure if I've ever heard the word "no" spoken more times by a single person...you'd have thought he was running an orphanage for kids with ADHD and Asperger's Syndrome, all of them hyperactive and laser-focused...

My take on it is that when any deck becomes this expensive when brand new and this rare right off the bat, I start to question whether it's really worth pursuing.  It's not like there's a shortage of really good decks out there.  I love most of what Jackson does, but this one's too rich for my blood and too hard to get even if it wasn't this expensive.  It's his thing to cater to the collectors of the rare and rarefied, and if that works for him, more power to him.  I think he could have made it a little less rare and made more on it, even without dropping the price - it's not good to leave customers with so much pent-up demand that you refuse to meet when there's so many other competing products in the marketplace.  I'm a fan of Tally Ho decks and I think this this is a very attractive deck, but this is one I'll just have to live without, whether I wanted to or not.

But that's my opinion, for all that's worth - at this point, I'm simply wondering why he bothered making it a two-week project when he could have made it a single day and sped up the process.

[HankMan]

At this point, I'm simply wondering why he bothered making it a two-week project when he could have made it a single day and sped up the process.

The first update indicate that, this time he has some aces up his sleeves.. we will see what he will bring to the table 

[PrincessTrouble]

Damn...there's not a single reward left.  How unrewarding. 

It funded in 58 seconds and sold out in approximately 2 hours.  That was insane!  I got in for 2 decks.

[Paul Carpenter]

While I probably could have finagled one from Jackson directly, I luckily remembered that this was happening while sitting on a bench at the Edison-Ford Winter Estates. Thanks to good cell coverage and the iPhone, I grabbed a couple since I like to support the projects from the people I admire.

[hecrob]

The deck looks great but i don't like this new trend in KS decks... specially from mister kings wild.

They are getting too expensive for no real reason.

$27 Dollars each deck? for an artificially scarce new deck? With no discount or free shipping or any kind of "reward" to the backers?

I know this decks are not cheap to make, but when you fund all your projects with kickstarter and basically take out the "risk" factor from it, aaand you use someone else's money to create it... then why so expensive? why the need to make it ultra unique? just for the sake of it?

The bubble is just growing...

[HankMan]

The deck looks great but i don't like this new trend in KS decks... specially from mister kings wild.

They are getting too expensive for no real reason.

$27 Dollars each deck? for an artificially scarce new deck? With no discount or free shipping or any kind of "reward" to the backers?

I know this decks are not cheap to make, but when you fund all your projects with kickstarter and basically take out the "risk" factor from it, aaand you use someone else's money to create it... then why so expensive? why the need to make it ultra unique? just for the sake of it?

The bubble is just growing...

I guess it is really depends on what you have in mind as a designer. When you create a deck, do you want it to be Standard edition or Collectible edition? that question will determine the price.

[PrincessTrouble]

They are getting too expensive for no real reason.

$27 Dollars each deck? for an artificially scarce new deck?

I disagree.  The gold MetalLuxe deck from Bicycle was $30, which makes me think $27 for a luxed Tally-Ho is not too expensive at all.

[Cardfool]

They are getting too expensive for no real reason.

$27 Dollars each deck? for an artificially scarce new deck? With no discount or free shipping or any kind of "reward" to the backers?

I know this decks are not cheap to make, but when you fund all your projects with kickstarter and basically take out the "risk" factor from it, aaand you use someone else's money to create it... then why so expensive? why the need to make it ultra unique? just for the sake of it?

Though I agree that the pricing for decks on KS is getting out of hand, especially for decks not printed by LPCC, EPCC or USPC, this particular deck is very different from most, if not all other decks on KS today.  JR is one of the first artists (if not the first) to use USPC's new MetalLuxe technology to foil the card backs.  These decks go for 20-30USD from Bicycle direct and that is for standard courts and backs.  With JR's deck, you are getting custom courts, metallic inks plus metaluxe back and a black foil tuck, which in my opinion, is well worth the 27 per deck.

As for KS taking out the risk factor in making cards, I would have to disagree.  If a KS project does fund, there is still a lot of issues (and risk) that need to be taken care of in order to fulfil all the orders from the project and a LOT can go wrong, especially if you are a responsible project creator like JR.  Look at Lotrek's ICONS project which was funded at the beginning of the year...he has gone through multiple runs of his deck and has come close to financial ruin, but he has still not finished his project.  Being the responsible project creator he is (as well as a perfectionist), he is going through his 4 printing of the decks...yes, this is a rare case, but it can and does happen.

I agree that the bubble is growing (and expect it to pop soon), there are still a bunch of artists that run great projects that push the envelope and though they are a little more expensive than the other projects out there, I will still support them.  As for the dozens of other decks out there with increasingly higher prices (12USD or more and sometimes plus shipping) without anything special (good printer, custom courts, special tuck), I will most likely be passing on many of them.

[JacksonRobinson]

In my opinion the card bubble has burst already even months ago. We are at a point now where most collectors have established what they do and don't like, and as designers go the only people who will survive are going to be the ones that distance themselves from the "norm". With that said it doesn't just mean more bells and whistles thus more expinsive decks. It just means the competition will only get tougher and the minimum level of accepted quality will just continue to rise. It will also become increasingly harder for the new guy to get in.

I also find it very interesting when people say "he's using someone elses money" that It somehow erases all risk. Just like some already have mentioned in earlier comments, this could not be more from the truth. The truth is, the moment the KS as funded and a creator gets "other peoples money" it becomes THEIR money. The creator then has to handle and use that money just as if it was his. Sure it may have not come out of his pocket but if something goes wrong or he miss manages "other people's money" the creator will learn very quickly that it was indeed their money and that there was just as much risk. I would argue that there is even more risk in a way. If someone like T11 or D&D pay for and produce a deck with their own money and it flops or something goes wrong, all they are out is their investment. With a Kickstarter if something goes wrong or someone doesn't deliver you are out more than just your money. You're reputation is now thrashed but more importantly you are now legally libel to every single backer which now multiplies your problems because now you not only have to recoup the money lost you also have to still pay for the production of the product. If you don't a backer has full right to take legal action. If a T11 deck flops or crashes and burns the costumer isn't going to be able to sue them or take them to court, they will just get a refund.

The money Kickstarter deposits into a creator's bank is not monopoly money, it just as real as your paycheck.

[Don Boyer]

The deck looks great but i don't like this new trend in KS decks... specially from mister kings wild.

They are getting too expensive for no real reason.

$27 Dollars each deck? for an artificially scarce new deck? With no discount or free shipping or any kind of "reward" to the backers?

I know this decks are not cheap to make, but when you fund all your projects with kickstarter and basically take out the "risk" factor from it, aaand you use someone else's money to create it... then why so expensive? why the need to make it ultra unique? just for the sake of it?

The bubble is just growing...

I have to argue that this deck isn't "too expensive for no real reason."  There's a very real reason - MetalLuxe isn't cheap.  Foil printing on cards in general isn't cheap, but MetalLuxe seems to be even more costly than what I've seen from companies like EPCC - there's certainly a lot more foil on the card backs than I've seen with EPCC.

I won't rehash what's been said about taking out the risk factor, because there is indeed risk, in spades - the creator of the original Bicycle Asylum deck would argue quite to the contrary.  I receive my decks two years late, but would never have received them at all were it not for a state attorney general pursuing a case against him and winning in court, busting open the floodgates for fraud cases against all kinds of KS project creators that fail to deliver as promised.  Assuming he pays the judgement against him, he's deep in the hole on whatever money he would have received from the project as "ill-gotten goods" for non-delivery - and that's just for the first case against him; there are likely others pending in other states.

Personally, my issue is the absolute rarity of the project - sold out in two hours on a two-week run.  Zero rewards remaining.  This thing should never have been on KS in the first place, if you ask me.  It's certainly not an audience-builder, not in such limited quantities.  In fact, when you've reached this point in the game, where your projects completely sell out that fast, I'd argue that you really no longer need KS at all - you're big enough and popular enough to stand on your own two feet and sell at retail like other businesses do.  KS's original model of being the place for the unknown artist to catch a break is being squashed by projects like this - Jackson himself posits that it's increasingly harder for new designers to break into the market.

Do bear in mind, this is just opinion - Jackson's free to use KS to his heart's content, until they place in effect some rule that says otherwise, just as nearly anyone else can.  But as a place for the new artist to find his audience, that artist will find it to be a lot like online dating - lots of noise, only a very weak signal.

[Paul Carpenter]

As many of us have learned over the years of designing things, it is patently impossible (and I do mean that in the strict sense of the word) to please every person in the audience. That is just fact, and it is borne out time and again. So, the best approach as a creator is to do things that inspire yourself, do the very best that you can, and then (provided of course that you have some level of common sense for your market) you put it out and hopefully people will like it.

I've personally found that with my audience, smaller projects bear more fruit in the end. However, there are many fixed costs and compensation for time that don't change, so a small run project is naturally going to cost more to the end consumer. Doesn't matter what product or service you are talking about, that's just reality. I chose to do projects like Zenith, the Standards or the upcoming Chancellor without the complexity of crowd funding, but they are not "artificially" limited. They are limited by financial models, the many (many) costs involved, the need to be profitable and the realities of fulfillment.

Jackson has a market that is used to Kickstarter, so it's seamless for him to use it and that's why he returns. It makes complete sense for him to use KS as it's where people expect him to go for each new release. Only a moron purposefully makes it harder for their customers to buy, so as long as he's ok with the fees and other costs, why fight the momentum?

To be blunt, if new people find it difficult to compete then the market is working. There are too many people putting out shoddy work and their respective games need to be stepped up, experience needs to be gained and their effort raised. I'd wager that most of the "top" card designers had decades of experience (which has both a value and a cost) before they got into cards and folks with a week of experience in Photoshop should expect to be crushed. Those with humility and a willingness to learn will try again, and those who don't will go away. Which is exactly how it should be. Nobody starts in the mailroom and is CEO the following week, though it seems that culture has developed this insane notion that everyone is entitled to instant success.

[Justin O.]

Set an alarm to get in on this one and my alarm did not work. Bummed out to have missed it. I have a dollar in to follow updates and hopefully snag a tier if one opens up. I asked through the project comments if Jackson had any plans to further open tiers but got no response. I guess that is a response. Very sad to have missed this one, but keeping my fingers crossed. For resale value alone JRs decks are worth their price, but this will be the first legacy set I don't get to add to my collection. Might have to get creative with how I can get one.

[Rob Wright]

As someone who self funded a deck this year. I will never complain about someone using KS properly. A lot of money came out of my pocket, and it will be a while before I see it back. If I had done mine as a KS project, and it succeeded. Then I could be onto my next project. Now it has to wait.
At least Jackson starts his projects at a profit, or at least a break even point. He's not the problem with KS. Those companies that have $4,000 goals are the problem. They plan on making money on the back side. They have to have such a low goal, or their crap projects would fail. Those crap decks are what's pushing out the real artist that need the full funding.

[Don Boyer]

At least Jackson starts his projects at a profit, or at least a break even point. He's not the problem with KS. Those companies that have $4,000 goals are the problem. They plan on making money on the back side. They have to have such a low goal, or their crap projects would fail. Those crap decks are what's pushing out the real artist that need the full funding.

I've seen projects succeed on goals of as little as $1,000 - it depends on the project and how it's being executed.  Digital printing with companies like MPC make such projects possible and only a small number of backers are needed to make it take off.  It does make it difficult to tell good from bad based just on the numbers - you have to really LOOK at a project to determine whether it's worth funding.

But let's not get too sidetracked on this, unless you guys want to make a new topic of it.  This is about the Black Diamond Tally-Ho - first project I know of that funded in under a minute and was completely sold out in just a few hours.  I wonder where Exploding Kittens would have been if they said, "uh, we sold all the decks, so that's it - everyone else, thanks for coming but we're done..."    Kudos, Jackson, on your success - I just wish it was a bigger success.

[Fess]

I think kickstarter is a great venue for Jackson and I hope he continues to do so. Anything that drives the KS community to bigger numbers is a very good thing in my book and his campaigns have the ability to that. The bubble is burst, well designed decks are failing to meet funding. In my opinion a sold out playing cards campaign is a thing of beauty. I can't imagine anything but looking on in awe of the demand for these decks, whether missing out on a tier or being able to grab a tier. It drives the wheel.

I'm curious why weapons grade billet aluminum was a choice of a slip box. It's borderline brilliant and insane at the same time. I didn't get in on one of those tiers, even though I could have, I chose to go with what I'll use as is usual for me. I can't imagine what I would do with an aluminum slip case other than let it collect dust. I can't deny they're going to be a very impressive sight when they're complete and I'm looking forward to seeing a photo of one when they're done. They're certainly the attention drawer even just being in render so far, that cool as hell factor. I just think the deck alone has that going on.

[Don Boyer]

I'm curious why weapons grade billet aluminum was a choice of a slip box. It's borderline brilliant and insane at the same time. I didn't get in on one of those tiers, even though I could have, I chose to go with what I'll use as is usual for me. I can't imagine what I would do with an aluminum slip case other than let it collect dust. I can't deny they're going to be a very impressive sight when they're complete and I'm looking forward to seeing a photo of one when they're done. They're certainly the attention drawer even just being in render so far, that cool as hell factor. I just think the deck alone has that going on.

I'd say it was the material of choice probably for several reasons.  It's high-quality, but relatively inexpensive and not difficult to obtain.  The metal is easy to work with and has a nice luster to it.  And as you said, there's no denying that it's eye-catching.  It will make for a very attractive display.  Aluminum became a very popular decorative metal in the 1920s, when Art Deco was king and aviation captured the world's imagination - aluminum's comparably-light weight and corrosion resistance made it ideal for aircraft, so designers started using it in home furnishings and people couldn't get enough of it.

[Marcus]

I'm glad I managed to get in on this before it sold out. The top tiers were sold out within seconds as expected, but there was over an hour before it sold out completely so it wasn't like it was an impossible task grabbing a tier if you were there for the launch.

Looking forward to seeing these arrive eventually - first custom design sporting the metalluxe.

[Fess]

There's T-shirts! Actually says Tally-Ho on the back!!!