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Help needed to date and possibly estimate a price for a couple of decks

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DocTw00

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Hi gang,

I finally found some time to go through my collection and start an index. However, I was unable to date a coupe of decks (without opening them) and or estimating their current market value.

So far, I have not taken pictures of everything but I will try to describe them accurately until next weekend when I can take more photos.

Thanks in advance for any help or leads :)


- First deck is a Bicycle Rider Back with a tax-free stamp. Everything is in excellent shape. Only the cellophane has some minor cracks at the top of the deck.


- The second deck is a Bicycle League Back also with tax-free stamp. Seal and cellophane have not been opened. It does however show some slightly bigger cracks in the cellophane toward the bottom of the deck.
 

 

DocTw00

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Keeping the tax-free order, here's a Bicycle New Fan Back with said stamp.

The seal has not been broken, however the top part of the cellophane is missing :(

 

 

DocTw00

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Speaking of New Fan Backs: I dug up two decks with long stamps which read "1 Pack".

Both decks are still sealed. Their cellophane shows some heavy cracks, though.


Also, I found half a brick of New Fan Backs with a non-stamp sticker seal.

 

 

DocTw00

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Here's a deck of Bee #92 playing cards from the NY Consolidated Card Company.

The seal has been opened, the wax paper, however, is in perfect condition. The box itself seems to be made out of a thicker, more sturdy cardboard. Comparable to the cardboard used for the boxes of Bicycle Eco decks. Its color is also different, with a more brownish beige to it.

 

 

DocTw00

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Next up are a couple of Steamboat decks. Both are in perfect condition, show no barcode and have the post taxes stamp as a seal.

 

 

DocTw00

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A few more to go.

- I found a brick of pre-barcode decks of Bicycle Rider Back cards. None of them came with cellophane, which has me confused. I am not sure if they came this way or if the previous owner peeled them for some bizarre reason.


- From the same previous owner came these two League Backs without barcode. Those ones do have cellophane around them but appear to have a different kind of seal, as the edges of the seal appear to be clear. Apart from the change in color of the seal they are in perfect condition.

 

 

DocTw00

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- This Bicycle Rider Back deck has a "1 Pack" stamp and apart from a very minor crack in the cellophane looks fantastic (to my untrained eye).

- Another two bricks were discovered consisting of original Aristocrat 727 decks. I do have at least one open deck, so I should be able to date them as soon as I can find it. Here I would mainly be interested in what you guys think they might be worth today.
 

 

DocTw00

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Thank you again for your help!

Reading some of the articles on this forum really has sparked up my interest in cards again  :D
 

 

Don Boyer

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Here are a few guidelines you can use for help with determining approximate manufacture dates your decks of cards.

* The white labels are tax-free stamps.  These started to be issued during World War Two, when the US Congress canceled taxation of select products (including playing cards) being sold to members of the US Armed Forces.  Since the US didn't enter the war until December of 1941, the decks are likely not older than 1942, and as taxes were repealed in late 1965, they'd be no younger than that year.  It's possible, however, that the tax-free stamps were discontinued earlier than the repeal date of the tax - certain government-issued tax-free stamps ended around the time of the Korean War in the early 1950s, but the white labels are private-issue stamps made by the manufacturer, the US Playing Card Company (USPC).

* The "1 Pack" tax stamp came in two designs, one rectangular and one square.  Both were in use from 1940 to 1965.

* When playing card taxes were repealed in 1965, private manufacturers replaced them with their own stamps out of tradition - their customers had come to expect seeing some kind of seal over the flap of their playing card tuck boxes.  Moisture-activated stamps were in use by USPC from 1965 until some time in the early or middle 1980s - you can identify them by the perforations on the edges where the stamps were torn before being stuck to the box, much like old postage stamps.  At that time, they were replaced by self-adhesive stickers using a nearly-identical design that has smooth-cut edges and rounded corners.

* Barcodes started appearing on USPC decks at roughly the same time as self-adhesive stickers started to be used for deck seals, in the middle of the 1980s - the exact date isn't known and could even vary from brand to brand.

* In 1992, Bee playing cards had their tuck boxes redesigned and were no longer monochrome (single-color, usually either red or blue).  This was to celebrate the brand's 100th anniversary.  The first year of manufacture, 1892, is the reason why there has always been a "92" on the Bee Ace of Spades.  Modern Bee deck tuck boxes made since 1992 are usually printed with blue, red and gold ink.  Be aware that COUNTERFEIT versions of Bee playing cards printed in China are often sold in the older, monochrome-box design!

* International and Canadian versions of Bee deck boxes have gold borders.  International versions of Bicycle decks boxes have gold borders.  Canadian versions of both decks have barcodes on the backs of the boxes instead of the bottoms.  Canadian USPC decks made before 1991 were manufactured in Canada under the name "the International Playing Card Company," which has since become a sales division of USPC.  So USPC-branded decks marked "made in Canada" would be pre-1991, while those marked "made in USA" are 1991 and newer.

* When USPC moved its manufacturing from Cincinnati, Ohio to Erlanger, Kentucky in 2009, three notable changes were made in their packaging:
- Bicycle decks had their boxes redesigned from what's now called the "classic" design to the "Standard" design.  The classic design is still available in an updated form as Bicycle model #807 but it not anywhere near as common as the Standard box design that replaced it.
- In addition to barcodes, box bottoms started to be printed with small-print legal information regarding copyright and name of manufacturer.  The copyright year given is usually the year of manufacture.
- Most common brands of USPC decks were seals with red or blue deck stickers just before the move - the color was changed to black at the time of the move and is still black today, though special-issue decks can have a variety of different seal colors and types on them or no seal at all.  It's worth noting that even if the box states that a deck was made in Cincinnati, if the deck seal is black, it was probably made in Erlanger and packed into a box that was left over from Cincinnati, which also means that it was probably made in 2009 or 2010.

That should serve as a good primer for dating a deck that's still sealed.

As far as the condition of the cellophane, while it's important for some collectors that the cellophane be intact, it's also a simple fact of physics that cellophane continues to shrink and become brittle over time - it's almost a given that an older deck, still wrapped, will have breaks in the cellophane.  This is actually a good thing - if it doesn't break, the cellophane is capable of twisting/warping the box and the cards inside as it continues to shrink.  For vintage decks, usually an intact deck seal is adequate proof that it's still in new condition, even if it's no longer in as-issued condition - and for many collectors, there's little to no difference between the two, especially factoring in how few vintage and antique decks are found in new condition with the box intact.

Value is another beast altogether.  Value, like beauty, will always be in the eye of the beholder.  The rule of thumb I use most often is to look for similar or identical items that have recently sold on eBay, though this works best with items that are at least semi-actively being traded.  I look only for successfully completed sales, especially auctions - never for active sales and never for items that weren't bid on or purchased.  This never guarantees you'll fetch the same price, but knowing what someone else recently paid will help clue you in as to what you might get, if you were to sell today.  It might also be considered acceptable as an appraisal value if you're attempting to insure your collection, though you'd have to ask your insurer to be certain.

When an item hasn't sold recently, though, you have to approximate a bit more, using items of similar make and vintage as your guide, with perhaps a tiny premium for the fact that the item, not having been on the market recently, might be a little bit more scarce.  Conversely, though, it could be the case that the item isn't on the market because it isn't desirable enough to bother with - if you have any doubts, it's better to consult with people who trade actively and get their opinions on the specific item in question.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 03:42:49 AM by Don Boyer »
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Chuqii

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I can help a little with the sealed Bee decks.  The bottom of your tuck box reads "CAMBRIC FINISH".  Somewhere between 1952 and 1955 the bottom of the tuck box changed to '"Bee" CAMBRIC FINISH', so your decks predate the change.  I'd love to narrow down the date range more, if anyone has more info.
Check out my decks for sale on eBay, and contact me directly for discounts. https://www.ebay.com/sch/clahobo/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=
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Re: Help needed to date and possibly estimate a price for a couple of decks
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2016, 06:22:13 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I can help a little with the sealed Bee decks.  The bottom of your tuck box reads "CAMBRIC FINISH".  Somewhere between 1952 and 1955 the bottom of the tuck box changed to '"Bee" CAMBRIC FINISH', so your decks predate the change.  I'd love to narrow down the date range more, if anyone has more info.

That's actually pretty good - we've trimmed the possible window down to only 15 years (1940-1955).  The best I could have done was the fact that the jokers still mention "Consolidated Doughtery" as the company name - USPC "absorbed" C-D into the company and stopped using the name in 1962, switching to USPC, although the box exterior to this day still mentions New York Consolidated Card Co., the "C" half of C-D, just as Tally-Ho decks still show "A. Doughtery" on their box exterior, the brand's original manufacturer before they were bought out by USPC.  But that tidbit is more useful for narrowing down the age.

Do we know at what point they stopped using vellum wrappers for the cards inside the boxes?  I'm guessing it probably came about around the same time they started using cellophane wrappers on the outside of the boxes.
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Chuqii

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Don't know about the wrapper on the cards.  As for the Joker, it could be helpful.  At some point the address on the Joker changed from New York, NY to Cincinnati, OH while keeping the "Consolidated-Dougherty Card Co".  I don't have enough decks to really narrow it down, but it was between 1948 and 1957.  If the change over was early in that range, it would help narrow the age of the deck even further.
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Don Boyer

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I was looking over the images again and spotting something interesting!!

The blue Bicycle New Fan Back deck has a unique marking on the front, to the sides of the Spade - "Marca Reg."  This would be the abbreviation of the Spanish form of "Registered Trademark."  That deck looks like it was intended for sale in a Spanish-speaking country - I recall USPC sold decks in Argentina.  That MIGHT be why the deck's cellophane is missing the top portion - Argentine taxes would have been paid on the cards and this would have been indicated by an ink stamp placed on the Ace of Hearts in an International Standard deck.  It's even possible that's why the pack has a white label seal on it - those were typically reserved for decks upon which no US taxes were paid, which would have made sense if the deck was being sold in a foreign country.  The deck was probably ink-stamped on the Ace of Hearts by government tax agents to indicated the Argentine taxes were paid and resealed using the white label while in that country.  There wouldn't be a US tax stamp on it - no sale in the US meant no taxes paid in the US.

In the attached image, borrowed from World of Playing Cards, you can see an International Standard deck that was made in Argentina, with the stamp on the Ace of Hearts.  You can also see how the maker's mark, usually seen on the Ace of Spades, appears on the Ace of Hearts in that country.

I can't speak as to the other white label decks - they have intact cellophane, but they're also shown only face-down so I don't know if they have "Marca Reg." stamped on the front of the tuck box.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 01:57:25 AM by Don Boyer »
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DocTw00

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That is fascinating! I just checked the other white stamped decks and they all show "Marca Reg." on the frontside of the box.

I do believe, however, that the cellophane just cracked due to its age as the top part of the League Back's cellophane is fully intact. So the decks were probably manufactured with tax free stamps and including cellophane.

Very interesting stuff! :)
 

 

Don Boyer

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That is fascinating! I just checked the other white stamped decks and they all show "Marca Reg." on the frontside of the box.

I do believe, however, that the cellophane just cracked due to its age as the top part of the League Back's cellophane is fully intact. So the decks were probably manufactured with tax free stamps and including cellophane.

Very interesting stuff! :)

All those decks with "Marca Reg." on them were almost certainly set aside for sale in a Spanish-speaking country, probably in Central or South America.  (In other words, anywhere from Mexico south, excluding Brazil!)  I don't know how many countries in that rather large region USPC has dealt with, particularly during the time that they were using those white tax-exempt labels, but I know there was at least a few, and I'm pretty sure Argentina was one of them.

It's interesting, the traditions that develop from region to region, even within the "limitations" of International Standard playing card design, in particular relating to taxation.  We have elaborate Aces of Spades because the British used them to indicate taxes were paid to the government.  For the same reason, we had ink stamps on Aces of Hearts in Argentina and tax stamps in the US and Canada, which evolved into the still-present deck seals we have today, a half-century after the taxes in the US were repealed.  We still have elaborate Aces of Spades in most decks which evolved into a form of maker's mark, though some make all four Aces fancy and a smaller fraction make a plain-jane Ace of Spades, though that's certainly the more rare option.  I know that Spanish-produced decks have a tradition of putting a maker's mark on one of the Fours (I think it's the Four of Clubs, going by memory) due to the small number of Spanish-produced decks in my collection, all from Fournier - the Lee Asher Signature Fournier 605s, the Fournier 505s, a Fournier "Magia" stripper deck and the Karnival Death Heads Armor Edition in plastic.

Argentine decks also use their tax-stamped card, the Ace of Hearts, as the card to include the maker's mark on, though they're not like the oversized and elaborate spades on the Aces of Spades of most standard decks - the heart pip itself remains rather ordinary, just crowded with a lot of words and symbols indicating who made the deck and that taxes were paid.  Interesting as well that the indicator of taxes being paid is an ink stamp made by the government rather than something the deck's maker included at the time of manufacture.
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