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2 decks from the 80s: is it normal for them to suck?

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2 decks from the 80s: is it normal for them to suck?
« on: June 21, 2016, 12:26:48 AM »
 

darkinertia

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so i won a few auctions on some vintage cards, 2 bees(deck dates back to 1983) that came sealed with a card game rulebook, and 1 bicycle(that dates to 1980 exactly) that came in one of those blister packs, kinda like what you normally see old stud decks in. i opened them up and both fan terribly! the bees arent nearly as bad but the bicycle almost has a cheapo chinese feel to them, the edges feel like they have burrs like they were cut with dull tools, and they fan worst than when uspc first went from ohio to kentucky.

ive bought used decks from around this time and they were great, most of the sealed decks ive bought until now only dated to the mid 90s. is this normal? do they need a lot of break in time? both of them do have bad warps in them, maybe the moisture has been sucked out of them because the seals didnt break like they normally did, theyre completely pristine but it feels like the adhesive has dried up.
 

Re: 2 decks from the 80s: is it normal for them to suck?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2016, 02:54:29 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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so i won a few auctions on some vintage cards, 2 bees(deck dates back to 1983) that came sealed with a card game rulebook, and 1 bicycle(that dates to 1980 exactly) that came in one of those blister packs, kinda like what you normally see old stud decks in. i opened them up and both fan terribly! the bees arent nearly as bad but the bicycle almost has a cheapo chinese feel to them, the edges feel like they have burrs like they were cut with dull tools, and they fan worst than when uspc first went from ohio to kentucky.

ive bought used decks from around this time and they were great, most of the sealed decks ive bought until now only dated to the mid 90s. is this normal? do they need a lot of break in time? both of them do have bad warps in them, maybe the moisture has been sucked out of them because the seals didnt break like they normally did, theyre completely pristine but it feels like the adhesive has dried up.

Vintage decks of that era can be found in great condition - IF they were stored properly to begin with.  The odds that your decks were kept in conditions that were even remotely climate-controlled for temperature and humidity are slim to none.  Imagine what you'd look like if you were kept in a warehouse, oven hot in the summer and freezing cold in the winter, without water for thirty-plus years...  :))

The Bikes were in a blister pack?  As in, hanging on a stiff paper card with a hole or a hook in it and encased in plastic?  I've never seen them like that.  I've only ever seen Studs with a plastic hang tag attached, usually right on the deck seal itself so the seals on a deck found without a hang tag are often found damaged even if the deck itself hasn't been opened.  Sometimes, though, the glue that kept the hang tag in place fails and the seal goes undamaged - but then again, the seals also sometimes suffer glue failure and come off on at least one side on an unopened pack.  Any time you have glue failures like that, though, it's often due to desiccation - a dehydration of the glue usually caused by storage in low humidity over an extended time, which can be accelerated with excessive heat or cold.

I do know that there are counterfeit Bees out there, but you'd know if they were counterfeits - the quality of the paper is absolutely awful, like the same cardboard used in cereal boxes, and the boxes are of the same grade of paper.  I haven't heard about counterfeit Bikes, though - there's not much of a market for them.  Bees get counterfeited and imitated because of how popular the design is in Asia, particularly in China.

As far as the Bikes having a rough edge - that could simply mean the cutting die was dull that day and no one bothered to sharpen or replace it before that deck was cut.

In either case, I couldn't say anything for sure unless I actually saw large, sharp images of the cards, not just the tuck boxes.
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Re: 2 decks from the 80s: is it normal for them to suck?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2016, 04:32:48 AM »
 

darkinertia

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heres the listings i got them from:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152108218661?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131822185838?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

i really doubt theyre counterfeits, at least they dont seem like it. i meant the blister packs kinda like how toys used to come in. its just strange because the used decks ive found around this timeframe are usually really good even in the beat up state theyre in, but these just feel bone dry...theyre even drying out my hands just trying to break them in lol

ill try to post a video later on, its just strange because i expected them to be like brand new, especially since it looks like the bees were shrink wrapped with the book a looong time ago, you could tell since the book was caving in and the wrap was practically squishing everything
 

Re: 2 decks from the 80s: is it normal for them to suck?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2016, 11:52:29 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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heres the listings i got them from:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152108218661?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131822185838?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

i really doubt theyre counterfeits, at least they dont seem like it. i meant the blister packs kinda like how toys used to come in. its just strange because the used decks ive found around this timeframe are usually really good even in the beat up state theyre in, but these just feel bone dry...theyre even drying out my hands just trying to break them in lol

ill try to post a video later on, its just strange because i expected them to be like brand new, especially since it looks like the bees were shrink wrapped with the book a looong time ago, you could tell since the book was caving in and the wrap was practically squishing everything

Interesting items you have there.

I've never seen the blister pack before but it's not surprising to find.  I noticed the Walgreen's price tag on it - Walgreen's has long carried Bicycle, but it's possible that this particular package may have preceded the creation of the Stud brand or at least coincided with it.  Studs originated around 1980 and were first made by Arrco, a competitor of USPC until USPC bought them up in 1987.  Up to the last printing, Studs always had Arrco faces on them and their replacements, the Play Right decks, still do.  This is just a bit of conjecture, but perhaps USPC was looking for a way to make Bicycle playing cards stand out next to the Studs store brand - Studs typically were on par with Bicycle in terms of quality but sold for a lower price.

The Bees do not look like the counterfeits and likely aren't - that book, if I'm not mistaken, was printed by USPC for many, many years in various forms under different names as a means to promote card play.

Have you considered simply storing the decks for a while in a room with a humidifier?  It might help to restore the decks to the proper humidity level to perform well enough for use.  After that, if there's still some warping, maybe a few days in a deck press will help.  If you don't own one, centering the cards (without the tuck box) under a stack of heavy hardcover books would be a suitable substitute.  You could try a table vise or similar of the type used by handymen or mechanics, but you'd need to be careful about evenly applying pressure without damaging the cards - sandwiching the cards between two smooth, flat boards and centering them in the vise would probably do nicely.

Be careful about using them a lot while they're still in this apparently overly-dry state.  The paper, the glue between the paper layers and the plastic coating might all be a bit on the brittle side.
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Re: 2 decks from the 80s: is it normal for them to suck?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2016, 12:18:44 AM »
 

darkinertia

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oh wow thanks for letting me know, my strategy was just to grudge through trying to break them in, while my hands burn from being so dry while using them lol id figured eventually the moisture from my hands would eventually revive the deck or something. i do have a humidor that i store my decks in, i dont load it with a water cartridge or anything i just use it because it has a hygrometer so i can keep an eye on them, especially during this season where the humidity is insane in virginia.

funny enough, the person that i bought the bicycles from is from Cincinnati so i wonder if that may have something to do with the packaging, perhaps it was a local thing. its strange how even very recent things get lost in history like this 
 

Re: 2 decks from the 80s: is it normal for them to suck?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2016, 04:15:21 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Lee Asher wrote this guide on the care and feeding of Jerry's Nugget playing cards - the rules apply to almost all decks, especially vintage USPC decks.  He recommends keeping them near or at 68ºF/20ºC at a relative humidity of 30-40%.  You might feel the need to increase that ever so slightly to re-humidify the paper in your cards, but don't do it by more than just a few percentage points - too far into the damp end of the spectrum will ruin them.  The process should be gradual and will take several days; they will naturally re-absorb more moisture from the air.  Whether the cards can be restored to good handling condition isn't guaranteed - maybe yes, or maybe they're too far gone; no way to know until you try.

Now you know that a lack of moisture can be as bad for paper as too much moisture!
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Re: 2 decks from the 80s: is it normal for them to suck?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2016, 01:54:47 AM »
 

darkinertia

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yeah i never took that into consideration when picking up vintage decks, i guess honestly for cardistry it seems like the best timeframe for good handling cards would be around the mid 90s to the early 2000s since they havent been around to be completely ruined by storage and they have some modern touches but still have that "organic" feel to them like vintage decks....its like the difference between tube amps and digital amps lol

oddly enough, i just got an aviator deck today thats probably around WWII timeframe (tax stamp and it has the "US savings bond" ad card, no uspc code on the ace of spades though) and that thing feels AMAZING dispite being an opened,granted a lightly used deck. the dribbles have this crisp to them that you cant get from even the best aladdins....weird part was that its obviously smooth but it says air cushion finish on the top of the box
 

Re: 2 decks from the 80s: is it normal for them to suck?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2016, 11:01:30 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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oddly enough, i just got an aviator deck today thats probably around WWII timeframe (tax stamp and it has the "US savings bond" ad card, no uspc code on the ace of spades though) and that thing feels AMAZING dispite being an opened,granted a lightly used deck. the dribbles have this crisp to them that you cant get from even the best aladdins....weird part was that its obviously smooth but it says air cushion finish on the top of the box

Pictures, man, pictures!
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Re: 2 decks from the 80s: is it normal for them to suck?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2016, 07:15:05 PM »
 

darkinertia

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does aviators fall under different rules with the ace of spades code or something because i know newer ones have the codes but this doesnt...it handles like a dream, it still has that sticky feeling to it though.

man im hooked on vintage decks! this beats buying the same old overpriced magic finish/bicycle stock decks! every deck has a unique feel to its time

« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 07:16:25 PM by darkinertia »
 

Re: 2 decks from the 80s: is it normal for them to suck?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2016, 01:27:31 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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does aviators fall under different rules with the ace of spades code or something because i know newer ones have the codes but this doesnt...it handles like a dream, it still has that sticky feeling to it though.

man im hooked on vintage decks! this beats buying the same old overpriced magic finish/bicycle stock decks! every deck has a unique feel to its time



I've seen this more "generic-looking" version of the Aviator before - those jokers and that Ace of Spades are common to many off-brand decks USPC sold over the years.  In fact, I have an old Aviator bridge-sized deck that uses them, and I've seen the "shield joker" in my vintage Japanese Friar's Club decks, which I think are from the '60s or '70s.

That's probably the reason for the lack of an AoS code - they might have done with this deck what eventually became common practice with Congress decks.  For Congress decks, they started to pre-print the faces and leave them for a while, waiting to print the backs on them once they've settled on whatever new designs they want and how many of each - they probably needed to see what would be popular or fashionable for a given time period.  When faces are preprinted, they leave the AoS code off because it's not yet known when the deck will be finished and what production numbers/letters it will have, if any.  With the generic AoS and jokers on this deck, it's possible that these were pre-printed faces as well.

In addition, it was a common practice for generic decks like this to wind up in a variety of card boxes under different brand names, like Torpedo, Caravan, Mohawk, etc.  These could easily have ended up in any of those boxes because the cards themselves are devoid of a brand name.  I'm told that eventually, once they pretty much stopped using the generic faces, all of those weird discount brands ended up with branded Aviators in them - it would appear that USPC didn't want to simply throw away the boxes and stuffed them with whatever was lying around and inexpensive, and for quite some time, Aviator was probably one of their cheaper brands, before Streamlines and Mavericks became part of the line with the acquisition of Arrco.  I have a few packs of Torpedoes in my collection that have branded Aviators in them, with the really boring Aviator back that's the modern standard.  As far as current USPC brands go, the Aviators have probably the least-interesting back in terms of appearance.

The image is a little blurry - could you take a sharper image of the extra cards?  I'm told that sometimes the extra cards have print-date identifying numbers on them.
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Re: 2 decks from the 80s: is it normal for them to suck?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2016, 01:53:49 AM »
 

darkinertia

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http://i.imgur.com/q1npMl0.jpg the only identifying thing i can see is that it says each book is worth a quarter which seems kinda crazy to me lol im also confused on why theyre promoting a hoyle book when this is way before hoyle was bought out by USPC
 

Re: 2 decks from the 80s: is it normal for them to suck?
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2016, 12:12:57 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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http://i.imgur.com/q1npMl0.jpg the only identifying thing i can see is that it says each book is worth a quarter which seems kinda crazy to me lol im also confused on why theyre promoting a hoyle book when this is way before hoyle was bought out by USPC

The ad card is double-sided - you didn't include an image of the other side.

Edmond Hoyle, an Englishman and the "father of whist," lived from 1672-1769, long before the American brand of playing cards bearing his name was created in 1927.  He was best known for writing what at the time were considered authoritative books on the subject of game rules, particularly card games but also some others, such as backgammon, chess and even a book on probability theory.  Today, the name Hoyle is associated with books on the rules of card games in much the same way that the name Webster is associated with English-language dictionaries.

In simpler terms, USPC was publishing Hoyle rule books before they bought the Hoyle playing cards brand from Brown & Bigelow in 2001, but the books did predate the cards by more than a couple of centuries. long before either company was in business.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 12:13:32 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: 2 decks from the 80s: is it normal for them to suck?
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2016, 01:43:08 AM »
 

darkinertia

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http://i.imgur.com/oB6M7UW.jpg

looks like it might not actually be WWII era since the book "150 ways to play solitaire", if it is the same book that i looked up, dates back to 1950
 

Re: 2 decks from the 80s: is it normal for them to suck?
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2016, 07:00:50 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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http://i.imgur.com/oB6M7UW.jpg

looks like it might not actually be WWII era since the book "150 ways to play solitaire", if it is the same book that i looked up, dates back to 1950

Maybe, maybe not.

Actually, I thought one of the other books listed would be a good clue - "Card Games for Children," by Vernon Quinn.  Unfortunately, it was more of a dead end to date the deck.  While one seller claims it was first printed in the 1950s, others listed a publishing date of 1946 and one listed a copyright date of 1933 with that 1946 printing date...
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